http://www.facebook.com/pages/Defining-Normality/132143476824779
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=137594072935627
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XinH4HohBjc
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?saved&&suggest¬e_id=102286336491660#!/notes/oatmeal-joy/defining-normality/102286336491660
http://oatmealjoy.blogspot.com/2010/07/defining-normality.html
Defining Normality doesn't come at the surface......
Instead of asking "ARE YOU NORMAL," let me first just tell you my take on that question, OK, you know what I am saying, I hope.
What makes us generically normal is not in regards to where we're from.
What makes us generically normal is not in where people say we're from.
What makes us generically normal is not in who we are exactly in essence to extents.
What makes us generically normal is not even in where we are all exactly going or in who we all are in our different ways and purposes or within those other many variables.
What makes us generically normal is not even in where we think we are going or who we think we are or other such variables as processed through our different minds.
What makes us generically normal is not even in our feelings towards all of this, our emotions in the mist of our journey towards destiny.
What makes us generically normal is however within our souls, within the very fibers towards not how we feel or think or act or react but rather in the essence to our hearts which dares us to believe or to doubt, to go with the crowd or to go for the cross.
What makes us generically normal is at the very roots of things henceforth.
Of course, nobody is normal to the extents concerning where we came from, what we do, who we are, where, when, how, and things like that concerning merely upon where we were, where we all came from to some extent, to our journey to the present to some extent. In other words, of course, to extents or in ways, we are all different because of these things, to some extent, of course, meaning that there is no exact face to defining whether or not we can all be labeled as normal or average or within some kind of stereotypical or racist or conceptional set of predicable or patterned perception or conception or ration concerning normality.
However, despite all of that or beyond all of that or somehow through all of that, however still, the concept of being normal really is painted in the realm of our mindsets concerning the future.
In other words, what makes some of us normal to some extents is not in our differences but more in the things that bring us together (the similarities), moreover, it is our shared common perspective or mindset, which guides our destiny, which melts our differences into shared vision (whether good or bad, depending on the type or to the exact shade to normality, depending on whether or not normality can ever be a good or bad thing depending on variables to extents).
Normal is the most biggest, most popular, most current highway.
Meaning that, despite the different cars traveling on this highway, despite where all those cars came from, despite all the different details which clouds us from understanding the concept to normality, despite all of that however, normal is still that highway which takes us all down that same highway and eventually off a cliff unfortunately in the end after everything is said and done.
We are all born on this L4OJ Normality Highway USA, it is a downstreaming river, however, there is a way off that Normality wagon or boat.
Breaking away from normality can only occur at the very fibers at the roots of the very essence within our souls and hearts concerning our attitude and perspective concerning our beliefs concerning in which we stand.
Tuesday, July 13, 2010
Thursday, February 25, 2010
fasting for april YS
- Amy Carr Reardon Have you ever fasted for spiritual purposes? What did it do for you?
- Alicia Nichole Adams I have decided that being overweight and unhealthy were not pleasing God and that I was not treating his temple with care and love. So to restart my eating habits I fasted for a day and just prayed. Now I am trying to exercise more and eat more healthy. 60 calorie, sugar free pudding snacks are my chocolate fix. They taste great and I don't feel guilty about having a cup once in a while.
I can already feel my body saying thank you and I feel closer to God by keeping his temple healthy and energized. - Emily Ward Yes! When I was in Revolution Hawaii, we'd fast every Friday, which was also the day when we kept the prayer room full for 24 hours, taking shifts of a few hours. It was a great reminder that:
1) man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God. Yes, our tummies were growling, but we were spending 2 hours in prayer, and that SHOULD be enough haha
and. . .
2) there are people all over the world who don't have three big meals plus snacks in one day, and I could use this reminder to pray for brothers and sisters who were in that situation. Isaiah 58 - all of it, but especially v. 6-8
I also have occasionally fasted since then, usually on days I want to set apart for prayer. Healing, a big decision, etc. It helps me stay focused. I never realize how much time, effort, and money I spend on food until I decide to fast. - Rachel Pruitt I did a 30-hour famine with the Cumberland, MD corps cadets. It was a fund raiser to raise awareness for the thousands of children who go hungry every day. During this event God really made me stop and think about all that I am priveleged to have in the United States, and He opened my eyes to a whole world of friends that I should bring to Him in prayer.
- DrKenyon Sivels I fast once a week (at least )for my generation. It gives me more passion to see Christ working in my peers
- Kyle Reardon I've fasted several times, however I found that I've often fasted not for the wrong reasons, but with the wrong intentions. I've often felt that if I fasted about a certain situation, then the problem would just go away. I often went into it with the attitude that I was doing something for God, and he owed me for it. "God, I'm not eating today. Now can you get me a job?"
Now not all of my fasting has been so selfish. I've since realized that fasting, for me, is a fantastic way for me to stay focused on what I need to pray about, not necessarily what I want fixed or answered.
But I find the biggest challenge while fasting, and something that makes it very gratifying, is not looking discouraged or dour while I'm doing it, or whatever that verse reads. I find when I maintain a good attitude while fasting instead of moping around about how hungry I am, I understand the it much more as a spiritual discipline than a sort of favor I'm so gracious to do for God. - Amber Lynn Ohl On one occasion, the Savior cast a devil out from a child and used this experience to teach His disciples about the power of prayer and fasting. His disciples asked Him, “Why could not we cast him out?” Jesus answered: “Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.” (Found in Matthew 17:14–21.)
This account teaches that prayer and fasting can give added strength to those giving and receiving blessings. The account can also be applied to your personal efforts to live the gospel. If you have a weakness or sin that you have struggled to overcome, you may need to fast and pray in order to receive the help or forgiveness you desire. Like the demon that Christ cast out, your difficulty may be the kind that will go out only through prayer and fasting.
You can fast for many purposes. Fasting is one way of worshiping God and expressing gratitude to Him. You can fast as you ask Heavenly Father to bless the sick or afflicted. Fasting may help you and those you love receive personal revelation and become converted to the truth. Through fasting you can gain strength to resist temptation. You can fast as you strive to humble yourself before God and exercise faith in Jesus Christ. You may fast to receive guidance in sharing the gospel. Fasting may accompany righteous sorrow or mourning.
When I fast I use this time to pray more in deepth for what has been happening that week and the coming week, for the sick, family and much more. When I fast I feel closer to my Heavenly Father! - Lynn S. Lopez I am currently fasting because the Holy Spirit has convicted my heart that I needed to. I have replaced other substances that I used in my past life (BC), to fill a void, with food. Romans 12:1 and 1 Corinthians 6:19 both tell me I am turning to food and mistreating Gods temple that He has made me a steward of. I am fasting to break the bondage that food holds over me. I believe that by the power of the Holy Spirit through fasting and prayer this bond can and will be broken.
Rather than continue to turn to food in times of stress, discouragement, boredom, jubilence, happiness, celebration...Oh that would be for all occasions, I choose to turn to my Lord. There must be a purpose for food to be eaten for me and that is to live and serve God. I no longer desire to live to eat, but eat with a purpose in glorifying God and service to Him.
Fasting is this sense is to cleanse this body and break a bondage I have come under through the power of the Holy Spirit! - David J. Tooley I have attempted fasts over the years and always failed because of a couple of different reasons. 1) I fasted for something I wanted or wanted done rather than listing and waiting for the Spirit's promptings. And 2) I failed because I thought fasting was as simple as not eating. I didn't prepare my mind, my heart or my body for the fast. I would always have to stop because of bad headaches.
This past year after studying God's Word and seeking His face on some issues I was prompted to fast. I checked out every Christian and medical book on fasting I could find at the library. I read up and prepared myself both physically and spiritually for the fast. I fasted for seven days without any headaches. In truth, I didn't suffer hunger pains that much at all until the sixth evening when I overheard an IHOP ad on the TV in the other room. I finished the fast out knowing where my first meal would be consumed.
Commissioner Sue E. Swanson has challenged THQ employees to fast and pray for revival in our Army. So every Monday several of us gather in the prayer room for a time of fasting and prayer. I love it.
So how do I benefit from this experience? Every time I fast and pray I am reminded that I am fully reliant on God. Without Him I can find no sustenance. I'm much more aware that I have far more "stuff" than I need and far less of Him than I need. There's much more than I can write here. Suffice it to say, fasting is now a regular discipline for me. - Stacy Antonovich I was asked by my corps officer several years ago to spend the day fasting as we would finish a Bible Study series with an evening in prayer at the corps. I didn't have the right mindset going into it and became sick. Because of this, I didn't think I would ever be able to spend a full day fasting.
In recent months, someone very close to me spent a week fasting on my behalf. When I learned that this person was doing that, I had a difficult time understanding why. I was asked, "If God asked you to do it for me, would you?" I answered yes, but inside I remembered my past experience and knew I wouldn't be able to. A few weeks later the situation came up, and I knew clearly from God that it was in fact my turn to stand in the gap for this person. I didn't know how it would work, but I knew I had to do it. I honestly did not think I would make it a day.
That week was incredible for me. I have never been able to spend as much time in prayer as I did that week. God was able to show me that is was not about me, but following His will and plan and for that situation, it was to use me to stand in the gap in constant prayer for that person. I didn't experience any illness and was so filled by Him that it was something I really enjoyed and was fulfilling for me as God worked in the situation and improved it just as I was praying for it.
My lesson learned is that when it is God directed, fasting is very fulfilling for me and gives me a clear time to take the focus off of me and place it where it needs to be.
Cadet
Stacy Antonovich - Holly Dawn Needham During my second year in training, I started to fast a couple times a month. During meal times, I would spend that time in prayer, meditation, and bible reading. I didn't fast for any particular thing or situation, but simply would take the time for extra prayer and bible reading. Those were incredible times spent with God.
I've recently felt God leading me to start doing one days fasts again, so I can simply spend that extra time with Him. - Joey Arnold Oatmeal .
.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFL1FwmFE3M: You can either click on the preceding link to listen to the following comment (for you lazy people out there, haha) or you can just read that same comment as follows:
.
.
FAST BLAST: MAKING IT LAST
By Joey Arnold
Why would fasting blast. Why make it last. The younger I was, the more I'd object to this.
I couldn't even bare a fast from Sim City, which was a very hot Super Nintendo video game back around 1996 when I was just an eleven year old tadpole. Mother would fast me from Sim City because I was getting too old for the good old spankings that us homeschoolers would deserve almost weekly. Me and Crystal were almost just laughing (instead of crying) when she went off to beat us (but no animals were harmed in this). That is why she started taking things from us, to discipline us (because she loves us, and it hurts them more than it hurts us).
But only like a second ago have I came to the conclusion that Mother was actually fasting us from things which were close to food or even idols. I use to throw temper tantrums. It might have well been a beating (not to be confused with actual abuse) because I was so upset. The video games were like girls to me. They completed me.
I could no less live without video games than a fat man could live without ice cream and donuts and TVs with couch potatoes.
FAST FAT PAT: WHO DAT: WHY DO DAT
Not only was I against video game fasting and actual food fasting, but I was also a pure junkfoodaholic. I'm typing this on Blake Webb's computer and I'm telling him "Of course junkfoodaholic is a word. I just added it to the dictionary."
Because Mother was a nutritionist (still is). Therefore, when Father came home with junk food, us four siblings would magically turn into the Teenage Mutant Mighty Morphine Ninja Junkfoodaholic Monsters and gobble up the food as fast as possible because once the junk in the trunk was gone then it was gone man. And as the song goes, there is no turning back from that. You take what you can and run for the hills with that.
So we did the very opposite of fasting.
BUT FAST BLASTING WILL STILL BE LASTING
Ladies and gentlemen, however, you may just hate me for saying this right now in this very long and very redundant run-on sentence (which I eat like fat people eats cake), but I am not exactly no more no longer in absolute volcano anger against the concept of life renewing everlasting long lasting oh over joy lasting blasting rapping casting lasting everlasting super duper so nice blasting Happy Hanukkah Blasting Lasting Fasting.
Oh Emily Ward (not to be confused with Montgomery Ward), I have once heard about Revolution Hawaii before through this boy who wore glasses and eats oatmeal.
He use to fast on Saturdays for possibly up to only eight hours during Silence & Solitude if that counts at all.
The first RevHI team (starring Emily Ward) were fasting every Friday (I think) alongside of the 24-hour prayer thing in the spanking brand new super duper RevHI Prayer Room (ask RevHI about that) which is very complementary to fasting of course.
Next year's team just didn't have it in them but I really hope I had nothing to do with such a decline like that (we were still pretty good in other things still). But then again, I was still not much of a fan of fasting even during Revolution Hawaii (I mean, that boy with glasses was not much of a fan).
But I have fasted for around thirty hours strait but only for probably four different times in my life. At first, you feel like you're going to die. But after you start getting into it then you start feeling that master cleanse feeling (not to be confused with the Master Cleanse). At first you feel like you are hurting and abusing your body (not to be confused with spanking and living life without Sim City) but then you start seeing rainbows grow out of your head for doing such a thing. It really feels like you're draining energy from your soul, and that's true in the short run of things. But in the long run, you're truly adding horse power to your own engine. The older I get, the more I think about fasting. Ask Rob Noland about fasting. There are fruit fasting. Water fasting. The list goes on. At first, you feel sick. But it truly does miracles. But I was really always against fasting. I might still be against fasting actually if you were only fasting to earn your way into Heaven.
Fasting is a blast. It is basically a type of Sabbath (ask Revolution Hawaii about that one). It is also basically like Silence & Solitude (again, ask Revolution Hawaii about that one, too).
BUT DO YOU FAST FOR SPIRITUAL PURPOSES
Even when that little boy with glasses and oatmeal was still on that Revolution Hawaii team, he still had objections to actually fast for spiritual purposes because "There has to be other ways in doing that."
You know, I actually was going to fast from TV and Ice Cream and stuff for a week and then comment up on here. I was waiting forever to comment up on here, dear Amy Reardon. I cannot believe I waited a whole entire week. Man, I basically fasted from the internet. That's good. But never mind that. I was waiting because I was trying to come up with something big to say on here so people can be like "Wow, look at what Joey Arnold wrote." But never mind that, too.
But in conclusion I would still like to say that maybe I do fast for spiritual purposes just maybe sometimes. Seriously, in all seriousness, I care more about fasting now than ever before. And physical aspect to fasting should very much be integrated and aligned with the spiritual aspects to our continual growth in the Lord, our fellowship, our prayer life, our time spent with God in reflection, in working out our things before God.
In other words, I think I do fast for spiritual purposes, as clearing out our bodies of physical toxins and in clearing out our minds then also from the sinful spiritual toxins likewise.
Joey Arnold
Moore Street Corps: Portland, OR USA
2010.02.25: Thu: 1700 PM PST
Monday, December 7, 2009
howness
I cannot write this.
I am just too hot for words. No, I am just too lost for words. That is why I cannot write this. I am just not sure how to write this. But let me give you a quick summary to my life so far:
failing all of my classes
still unemployed
broke around seven phones
still without phone
dirty room
eating garbage each day
need hair cut
have no friends
lost in head
feeling suicidal
bike pedal broke
bad bike brakes
dinosaur laptop eats me
i eat at homeless shelters
i became bitter in life
i do not pray or anything spiritual any more
(that is actually a lie, i do pray, but.......)
everything is falling apart
and still failing classes
still failing life
lost in head
lost in world
going insane
but i am still oatmeal
but i just wish i had purpose
I just wish that I could live up to my name.
And school is just too hard and meaningless. It would be easier if I was helping other people do school but it is hard to help self especially when computer dies on you and takes hours for just a page to load up and it costs so much money.
I wish that I could just be reborn and make some friends in life and show them that I am not as negative or as lost as this current post is.
I just want to go caroling.
I want to be Christmas to people.
And there are so many things I want to do for the world. But I am totally lost to how to do it. That is all I need. I just need some howness.
some howness please
I am just too hot for words. No, I am just too lost for words. That is why I cannot write this. I am just not sure how to write this. But let me give you a quick summary to my life so far:
failing all of my classes
still unemployed
broke around seven phones
still without phone
dirty room
eating garbage each day
need hair cut
have no friends
lost in head
feeling suicidal
bike pedal broke
bad bike brakes
dinosaur laptop eats me
i eat at homeless shelters
i became bitter in life
i do not pray or anything spiritual any more
(that is actually a lie, i do pray, but.......)
everything is falling apart
and still failing classes
still failing life
lost in head
lost in world
going insane
but i am still oatmeal
but i just wish i had purpose
I just wish that I could live up to my name.
And school is just too hard and meaningless. It would be easier if I was helping other people do school but it is hard to help self especially when computer dies on you and takes hours for just a page to load up and it costs so much money.
I wish that I could just be reborn and make some friends in life and show them that I am not as negative or as lost as this current post is.
I just want to go caroling.
I want to be Christmas to people.
And there are so many things I want to do for the world. But I am totally lost to how to do it. That is all I need. I just need some howness.
some howness please
Thursday, November 5, 2009
Evolution or Creation
Understand.
Where we are going.
Where we are.
Where we were.
Understand.
Where we are going depends on where we are, right now. Where we are, right now, depends on where we were.
Understand.
Where we were.
Because we are all so going. Will tell you more about that later. But do understand where we are coming from. Or do understand where they are coming from. Or do understand where you are coming from. Or do understand where we might be coming from. But we are still all going. Will tell you what I mean by that, later. But please do understand.
Understand.
Understand where we are all coming from.
Some say that we are from evolution.
Understand where they are coming from.
Some say that we are from creation.
Understand where they are coming.
And others will say other things.
Or something in between.
Or we can all be right.
But whatever the case may be.
Understand where they are coming from.
But do also understand where we are.
Because we cannot all be right about this.
Understand.
Dear readers.
And please do note.
All the web links in my article, here.
Were chosen at random (or close to that).
But do go check out the sites.
But there is more where that came from.
Will tell you more on this, later.
But do understand.
Understand.
Understand.
But we can all be right.
http://www.expelledthemovie.com/
http://www.expelledexposed.com/
Understand.
Understand where we are all coming from. Connect the dots. See where they are coming from. Come down to their level. Try to relate. Open up your eyes. Stab out your eyes. Swap eyes. Gaze at the world through their eyes. Walk in their shoes. Understand why they believe what they believe. Listen to their story. And listen to my stories. You will be amazed. Because there is connection. There is relation. We all share a common bond with each other. In some sense, we can all be right. Because we are all seeing the world from different points of view. We are all looking at the world through different eyes, from different angles, through different light, at different times, in different places, for different reasons. We can all be genuine about what we see. We can all say, "This is what I see, this is how I feel, this is what I think, this is what I believe." It is not a lie to say how one feels. It is not a lie to say how one sees. It is not a lie to say how one thinks or do. It is not a lie to say how one believes.
Understand.
The Toddler Illustration.
Imagine a toddler saying "two plus one equals six." Looking back at her, you say, "Why do you say that?" She rolls her eyes, "Because it goes one, two, six, silly." That is what she remembered. That is how she learned it. That is how she saw the world. But do understand those who will have problems with this illustration.
Understand.
The Elephant Illustration.
Imagine being blind. Imagine playing doctor with an elephant. Imagine describing the elephant. We can describe the elephant in different ways. And we can all be right about. We can all say, "You right but I'm also right." I can describe the elephant to be like a skinny rope. You can describe her to be like a tree trunk. Another can describe her to be like a fat snake. Another can describe her to be a long tusk tooth. We can all be right about it, in that sense. We are all in different places. We are all touching the elephant at different points. In that sense, we can all be right. All our points were valid. All our points were truth. I described the elephant's tail to be a rope. You described the elephant's legs to be like a tree trunk. Another described her trunk snout to be like a fat snake. Another described her tusks to be like tusks. This last one needs work. Use your imagination. I am not sure how to describe the tusks exactly. But you can get the point. That we did not contradict each other. In some sense, we can all be right. But do understand those who may have a problem with this illustration.
Understand.
But we can all be right.
Some say that we are products of evolution. Others say that we are from creation. In some sense, we can all be right. Understand those who are against this statement. But also do understand those who agree with this statement about contradiction or about points of view. In some kind of way, we can all be right about where we are from. I will tell you more about that, later, I promise. But before I tell you more on that, please know, that in another sense, we cannot not all be right.
Understand.
But we cannot all be right.
But do understand where we are. In some sense, on one hand, we can all be right. We all see the world through different lens, different glasses. But at the same time, on this other hand, we cannot all be right. Understand that.
understand
understand
understand
understand
understand
understand
understand
But we cannot all be right.
Understand.
Understand where we are.
Where we are depends on where we were.
Understand.
Understand.
The Bob & Cindy Illustration.
Bob says that we are from Venus. But Cindy says that we are from Mars. On one hand, they both cannot be right. But on the other hand, they both can be right.
1. Some may be from Venus. Others may be from Mars. In that sense, they both can be right. Bob says that "we," as in his people (all of his people, not Cindy's people), are from Venus, and Cindy says that "we," as in her people, are from Mars.
2. Or we may all be from both Venus and Mars. Billions of years ago, our ancestors may have lived on Venus until it got too hot. Then they moved to Mars. And then they moved to earth when Mar's water dried up. In that sense, even more so, they both can be right.
3. Or Bob's Venus may actually be Cindy's Mars. They may be both calling the same place by different names. That is a communication bunker. That happens all the time. That is an illusion. It seems as if Bob is contradicting Cindy. But they are just using different words.
But please understand those who may have a problem with this illustration.
Understand.
Understand.
But we cannot all be right.
On one hand, we can all be right about where we come from. But on the other hand, we cannot all be right. In some ways or sense, we cannot all be from more than one place at a time. Will explain that one later.
Understand.
Understand.
The Bob & Cindy Illustration, Part II
1. Bob can say his and Cindy's (and all of our's) ancestor, the Dinosaur Man, lived on Venus (not Mars, but the real Venus, the same one that is still up there), and he was a tree (not a turkey), in 800 million B.C.E (or B.C. or Before Christ).
2. But Cindy can say, no, our ancestor, the Dinosaur Man, lived on Mars (again, not Venus), and she or it was a turkey (not a tree) back in 3 billion B.C.E.
But in this sense, they cannot both be right.
But do understand those who will have a problem with this illustration.
Understand.
But we cannot always be right.
Understand.
On one hand, we can all be right at the same time. I will have to tell you more on that, later. And I will tell you more on that, later. Possibly, next week. Beg me to tell you more on how we can all be right at the same time. I will tell you how. I will tell you how. Just be patient. And I will tell you how and why. More on that later.
But on that other hand, again, still, we just cannot both all be right. We cannot all be right in some other way or in the bigger perspective. We can all have our beliefs but somebody is still going to be wrong. Again, we can all be right, on one hand, I agree, but that is only half of the story. And I will have to tell you why, later. I will explain this more, later. Just beg me to tell you more, later. You will find me on YouTube. Buy my videos. They are coming.
Understand.
Understand.
Darwin & Dawkins
I read through Charles Darwin's Origin of Species. Just today, even, I was reading through Richard Dawkins' The Greatest Show On Earth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Origin_of_Species
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greatest_Show_on_Earth_The_Evidence_for_Evolution
http://www.amazon.com/Greatest-Show-Earth-Evidence-Evolution/dp/1416594787
http://richarddawkins.net/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=15-answers-to-creationist
Understand.
Ken Ham
I am also familiar with this Creationist.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/
https://store.creation.com/us/product_info.php?products_id=802&gclid=CMP0tI7h9J0CFR4Hagod4mHgLQ
http://www.intelligentdesign.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design
http://www.intelligentdesignnetwork.org/
Understand.
Evolution or Creation
Where we are going depends on where we are. Where we are depends on where we are going.
http://www.discovery.org/csc/
http://www.allaboutcreation.org/evolution-vs-creation.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation%E2%80%93evolution_controversy
http://www.religioustolerance.org/evolutio.htm
Understand.
But please do understand.
But please understand where we are coming from. Please understand the different sides to this story about where we are from. Understand those who believe in Evolution. Understand those who believe in Creation. Understand those who believe in other things or in something in between these. And please understand that we cannot escape these questions. These questions help us understand who we are. And we want to know who we are. We all want to know who we really are. I repeat, we really want to know who we are. But it really depends on where we were. It really depends on who we were. But we really do want to know who we are. We want to know the meaning to life. We want to know our destiny. We want to find that L4OJ. We are looking for joy. I will have to tell you more about L4OJ later. But we want to know where we are going. We want to know who we are becoming.
Understand.
Please understand where we are coming from.
Please understand where they are coming from.
Because there is much more to this.
Than what meets the eye.
But we want to know where you are coming from, too.
Please contribute your thoughts to this forum.
This will be an ongoing journey, together.
There is a lot that much be said.
More on that, later.
More is coming on this. Please stay tune. Videos are coming. Many things are coming. But please come with us. Come fly with us. Set your time machines to the past. We want to know where we were. We want to know who we were. Because we want to know who we are. Come with us. Come in this ride. Please come with us. You are so coming with us. You cannot escape that. That is where we are going. Come with us. You are so coming with us. I know you. You are coming with us. You are just like me. We are on this earth, together. As a society, we must know. We are so going. it is time to fly. I will show you the world on this magic carpet ride. I will be your Aladdin.
Understand.
Understand.
Come on the ride.
Evolution or Creation.
Or is that even the right question.
More on that, later.
But please come.
We are going back in time.
I will tell you why, later.
I promise.
Understand.
But you are so coming, too.
Because that is where we are going.
Tell you how and why, later.
Understand.
But do first understand.
Understand.
Where we are going.
Where we are.
Where we were.
Understand.
Where we are going depends on where we are, right now. Where we are, right now, depends on where we were.
Understand.
Where we were.
Because we are all so going. Will tell you more about that later. But do understand where we are coming from. Or do understand where they are coming from. Or do understand where you are coming from. Or do understand where we might be coming from. But we are still all going. Will tell you what I mean by that, later. But please do understand.
Understand.
Understand where we are all coming from.
Some say that we are from evolution.
Understand where they are coming from.
Some say that we are from creation.
Understand where they are coming.
And others will say other things.
Or something in between.
Or we can all be right.
But whatever the case may be.
Understand where they are coming from.
But do also understand where we are.
Because we cannot all be right about this.
Understand.
Dear readers.
And please do note.
All the web links in my article, here.
Were chosen at random (or close to that).
But do go check out the sites.
But there is more where that came from.
Will tell you more on this, later.
But do understand.
Understand.
Understand.
But we can all be right.
http://www.expelledthemovie.com/
http://www.expelledexposed.com/
Understand.
Understand where we are all coming from. Connect the dots. See where they are coming from. Come down to their level. Try to relate. Open up your eyes. Stab out your eyes. Swap eyes. Gaze at the world through their eyes. Walk in their shoes. Understand why they believe what they believe. Listen to their story. And listen to my stories. You will be amazed. Because there is connection. There is relation. We all share a common bond with each other. In some sense, we can all be right. Because we are all seeing the world from different points of view. We are all looking at the world through different eyes, from different angles, through different light, at different times, in different places, for different reasons. We can all be genuine about what we see. We can all say, "This is what I see, this is how I feel, this is what I think, this is what I believe." It is not a lie to say how one feels. It is not a lie to say how one sees. It is not a lie to say how one thinks or do. It is not a lie to say how one believes.
Understand.
The Toddler Illustration.
Imagine a toddler saying "two plus one equals six." Looking back at her, you say, "Why do you say that?" She rolls her eyes, "Because it goes one, two, six, silly." That is what she remembered. That is how she learned it. That is how she saw the world. But do understand those who will have problems with this illustration.
Understand.
The Elephant Illustration.
Imagine being blind. Imagine playing doctor with an elephant. Imagine describing the elephant. We can describe the elephant in different ways. And we can all be right about. We can all say, "You right but I'm also right." I can describe the elephant to be like a skinny rope. You can describe her to be like a tree trunk. Another can describe her to be like a fat snake. Another can describe her to be a long tusk tooth. We can all be right about it, in that sense. We are all in different places. We are all touching the elephant at different points. In that sense, we can all be right. All our points were valid. All our points were truth. I described the elephant's tail to be a rope. You described the elephant's legs to be like a tree trunk. Another described her trunk snout to be like a fat snake. Another described her tusks to be like tusks. This last one needs work. Use your imagination. I am not sure how to describe the tusks exactly. But you can get the point. That we did not contradict each other. In some sense, we can all be right. But do understand those who may have a problem with this illustration.
Understand.
But we can all be right.
Some say that we are products of evolution. Others say that we are from creation. In some sense, we can all be right. Understand those who are against this statement. But also do understand those who agree with this statement about contradiction or about points of view. In some kind of way, we can all be right about where we are from. I will tell you more about that, later, I promise. But before I tell you more on that, please know, that in another sense, we cannot not all be right.
Understand.
But we cannot all be right.
But do understand where we are. In some sense, on one hand, we can all be right. We all see the world through different lens, different glasses. But at the same time, on this other hand, we cannot all be right. Understand that.
understand
understand
understand
understand
understand
understand
understand
But we cannot all be right.
Understand.
Understand where we are.
Where we are depends on where we were.
Understand.
Understand.
The Bob & Cindy Illustration.
Bob says that we are from Venus. But Cindy says that we are from Mars. On one hand, they both cannot be right. But on the other hand, they both can be right.
1. Some may be from Venus. Others may be from Mars. In that sense, they both can be right. Bob says that "we," as in his people (all of his people, not Cindy's people), are from Venus, and Cindy says that "we," as in her people, are from Mars.
2. Or we may all be from both Venus and Mars. Billions of years ago, our ancestors may have lived on Venus until it got too hot. Then they moved to Mars. And then they moved to earth when Mar's water dried up. In that sense, even more so, they both can be right.
3. Or Bob's Venus may actually be Cindy's Mars. They may be both calling the same place by different names. That is a communication bunker. That happens all the time. That is an illusion. It seems as if Bob is contradicting Cindy. But they are just using different words.
But please understand those who may have a problem with this illustration.
Understand.
Understand.
But we cannot all be right.
On one hand, we can all be right about where we come from. But on the other hand, we cannot all be right. In some ways or sense, we cannot all be from more than one place at a time. Will explain that one later.
Understand.
Understand.
The Bob & Cindy Illustration, Part II
1. Bob can say his and Cindy's (and all of our's) ancestor, the Dinosaur Man, lived on Venus (not Mars, but the real Venus, the same one that is still up there), and he was a tree (not a turkey), in 800 million B.C.E (or B.C. or Before Christ).
2. But Cindy can say, no, our ancestor, the Dinosaur Man, lived on Mars (again, not Venus), and she or it was a turkey (not a tree) back in 3 billion B.C.E.
But in this sense, they cannot both be right.
But do understand those who will have a problem with this illustration.
Understand.
But we cannot always be right.
Understand.
On one hand, we can all be right at the same time. I will have to tell you more on that, later. And I will tell you more on that, later. Possibly, next week. Beg me to tell you more on how we can all be right at the same time. I will tell you how. I will tell you how. Just be patient. And I will tell you how and why. More on that later.
But on that other hand, again, still, we just cannot both all be right. We cannot all be right in some other way or in the bigger perspective. We can all have our beliefs but somebody is still going to be wrong. Again, we can all be right, on one hand, I agree, but that is only half of the story. And I will have to tell you why, later. I will explain this more, later. Just beg me to tell you more, later. You will find me on YouTube. Buy my videos. They are coming.
Understand.
Understand.
Darwin & Dawkins
I read through Charles Darwin's Origin of Species. Just today, even, I was reading through Richard Dawkins' The Greatest Show On Earth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Origin_of_Species
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greatest_Show_on_Earth_The_Evidence_for_Evolution
http://www.amazon.com/Greatest-Show-Earth-Evidence-Evolution/dp/1416594787
http://richarddawkins.net/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=15-answers-to-creationist
Understand.
Ken Ham
I am also familiar with this Creationist.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/
https://store.creation.com/us/product_info.php?products_id=802&gclid=CMP0tI7h9J0CFR4Hagod4mHgLQ
http://www.intelligentdesign.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design
http://www.intelligentdesignnetwork.org/
Understand.
Evolution or Creation
Where we are going depends on where we are. Where we are depends on where we are going.
http://www.discovery.org/csc/
http://www.allaboutcreation.org/evolution-vs-creation.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation%E2%80%93evolution_controversy
http://www.religioustolerance.org/evolutio.htm
Understand.
But please do understand.
But please understand where we are coming from. Please understand the different sides to this story about where we are from. Understand those who believe in Evolution. Understand those who believe in Creation. Understand those who believe in other things or in something in between these. And please understand that we cannot escape these questions. These questions help us understand who we are. And we want to know who we are. We all want to know who we really are. I repeat, we really want to know who we are. But it really depends on where we were. It really depends on who we were. But we really do want to know who we are. We want to know the meaning to life. We want to know our destiny. We want to find that L4OJ. We are looking for joy. I will have to tell you more about L4OJ later. But we want to know where we are going. We want to know who we are becoming.
Understand.
Please understand where we are coming from.
Please understand where they are coming from.
Because there is much more to this.
Than what meets the eye.
But we want to know where you are coming from, too.
Please contribute your thoughts to this forum.
This will be an ongoing journey, together.
There is a lot that much be said.
More on that, later.
More is coming on this. Please stay tune. Videos are coming. Many things are coming. But please come with us. Come fly with us. Set your time machines to the past. We want to know where we were. We want to know who we were. Because we want to know who we are. Come with us. Come in this ride. Please come with us. You are so coming with us. You cannot escape that. That is where we are going. Come with us. You are so coming with us. I know you. You are coming with us. You are just like me. We are on this earth, together. As a society, we must know. We are so going. it is time to fly. I will show you the world on this magic carpet ride. I will be your Aladdin.
Understand.
Understand.
Come on the ride.
Evolution or Creation.
Or is that even the right question.
More on that, later.
But please come.
We are going back in time.
I will tell you why, later.
I promise.
Understand.
But you are so coming, too.
Because that is where we are going.
Tell you how and why, later.
Understand.
But do first understand.
Understand.
Wednesday, November 4, 2009
torah
http://oatmealjoy.blogspot.com/2009/11/torah.html
. How we are going to keep the torah. Question mark at above link. How we are going to live out what is best. That is the question mark. More on this, later.
Why I Keep Torah, By Ronald Gilden
. How we are going to keep the torah. Question mark at above link. How we are going to live out what is best. That is the question mark. More on this, later.
Why I Keep Torah, By Ronald Gilden
Hello dear friends.
It's been on my heart for a while to write concerning my beliefs. This is by no means something I do often, nor with great confidence. That being stated, I'm praying constantly for God to give me words to write. I'm going to try and do this in parts, so as to maintain readability (that is to say, there shall be sequels!).
As many of you know (though quite possibly not all of you), I am a Christian, but with sometimes vastly different beliefs than that of the Christian body (more precisely, the commonly accepted Protestant traditions). Now, many people already know this about me, but rarely do people inquire as to why. Some people assume I'm confused, or simply because of my (Jewish) heritage, others have asked and I've outright brushed off their questions out of fear of rejection (a choice I greatly regret). Therefore I'd like to take this time to clarify these fun oddities about me.
Wait… let us establish common ground…
I am saved by grace through Jesus. There is nothing that I did to acquire this, except simply accepting the gift that was offered to me by God (Eph. 2:1-13 , 2 Tim. 1:8-10). I believe that as a redeemed person, I ought to live my life in a way that is honoring to God (Rom. 12:1-2) as laid out in God’s word (2 Tim. 3:14-17). So then… where do I part ways with mainstream Protestant teaching?
To be absolutely clear (if anyone is unsure what differing beliefs I have), I am speaking about my eating only kosher foods (Lev. 11), my not working or buying on Sabbath (Ex. 20:8-11 - Oh, and I mean specifically Friday at sunset to Saturday at sunset), keeping the Biblical feasts (Lev. 23), and all the other quirky things from God’s Law (a.k.a. the Torah, a.k.a. the first five books of the Bible) which most Christians neither do nor preach. I do absolutely none of these because of my Jewish heritage, but because I am saved in Christ and in love with God.
In Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus said,
Did Jesus come to abolish God's Law? Was His purpose to drive a dividing line between the 'Old Testament' and the 'New'? By His very words, no. He came to fulfill, and not just to fulfill the prophecies, but also give true purpose to the Law. In other words to 'fill full'. What am I saying by this? That Christ Himself professed the importance of the Old Testament; and not just the importance, but the relevance, the lasting relevance. After all, has either heaven or earth passed away?
So then, if I'm saved by grace through Jesus, why then do I associate following God's Law with loving Him?
In Matthew 22:37-40, when asked what the greatest commandment (from the Torah) was, Christ answered,
Let me ask a question: How am I to act out love towards God? I know Christianity is all about love; loving one another, loving God- being caring. But is loving God just caring for Him? Is it simply feeling emotions toward our Creator? Is it as easy as talking to Him every day, if I can even manage that much? How do you love God?
The apostle John wrote,
The New Testament says we show God we love Him by keeping His commandments. 1 John 5:2 says that this is also how we love one another- by keeping God's commandments. There's a reason why every bit of the Law and the Prophets hang on love; because by doing the commandments we're showing our love for God and one another. How is this not legalism? Because every bit of the Law is a matter of the heart. Paul himself clarifies this in Romans 7:14 when he says that the Law is spiritual. It comes from within. It is not some regulations God chose to merely be acted out physically, but to emerge from the inside out. I am not introducing a new concept here; neither was John nor Paul. It is written all over the Torah.
Deuteronomy 10:12-13
Deuteronomy 26:16-19
2 John 1:5-6
Beautiful, no? The commandments of God are always in tandem with love. Did God intend for us to view His ways as arbitrary? Legalistic? Or did He want us to follow after Him with everything that we have, with all our heart, with all our soul, and with all our mind. From the very innermost depths of my heart, that part of me that yearns to be nearer to God- that's where obedience comes from. Every part of our being is supposed to passionately desire to keep God's commandments (if you still don't buy into this idea, please read, Ex. 25:2, 35:5, 35:21-22; Lev. 19:18; Deut. 4:29, 6:5-6, 11:1, 30:6, 30:15-16, 30:19-20- actually, just read all of Deuteronomy 30 - John 14:15, 14:21, 14:23-24, 15:10, Rom. 13:9, 1 John 2:3-6, 5:2-4, and 2 John 1:5-6).
The commandments of God are not burdensome (though we may not always agree). They are not a matter of legalism, and by no means are they to be acted out in hopes of salvation. I don't follow the commandments to become saved but because I'm saved. They are not how we become saved, but how we become sanctified.
What do I mean exactly by sanctified? Set apart (w)hol(l)y unto God. If we are to be like Jesus (1 John 2:6) who He Himself kept God's commandments (John 15:10) and was therefore without sin (2 Cor. 5:21), should we not as well?
Let me put it another way- if you are redeemed by Jesus Christ and belong to God, why wouldn't you want to keep His commandments?
-Ronnie
It's been on my heart for a while to write concerning my beliefs. This is by no means something I do often, nor with great confidence. That being stated, I'm praying constantly for God to give me words to write. I'm going to try and do this in parts, so as to maintain readability (that is to say, there shall be sequels!).
As many of you know (though quite possibly not all of you), I am a Christian, but with sometimes vastly different beliefs than that of the Christian body (more precisely, the commonly accepted Protestant traditions). Now, many people already know this about me, but rarely do people inquire as to why. Some people assume I'm confused, or simply because of my (Jewish) heritage, others have asked and I've outright brushed off their questions out of fear of rejection (a choice I greatly regret). Therefore I'd like to take this time to clarify these fun oddities about me.
Wait… let us establish common ground…
I am saved by grace through Jesus. There is nothing that I did to acquire this, except simply accepting the gift that was offered to me by God (Eph. 2:1-13 , 2 Tim. 1:8-10). I believe that as a redeemed person, I ought to live my life in a way that is honoring to God (Rom. 12:1-2) as laid out in God’s word (2 Tim. 3:14-17). So then… where do I part ways with mainstream Protestant teaching?
To be absolutely clear (if anyone is unsure what differing beliefs I have), I am speaking about my eating only kosher foods (Lev. 11), my not working or buying on Sabbath (Ex. 20:8-11 - Oh, and I mean specifically Friday at sunset to Saturday at sunset), keeping the Biblical feasts (Lev. 23), and all the other quirky things from God’s Law (a.k.a. the Torah, a.k.a. the first five books of the Bible) which most Christians neither do nor preach. I do absolutely none of these because of my Jewish heritage, but because I am saved in Christ and in love with God.
In Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus said,
'Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.'
Did Jesus come to abolish God's Law? Was His purpose to drive a dividing line between the 'Old Testament' and the 'New'? By His very words, no. He came to fulfill, and not just to fulfill the prophecies, but also give true purpose to the Law. In other words to 'fill full'. What am I saying by this? That Christ Himself professed the importance of the Old Testament; and not just the importance, but the relevance, the lasting relevance. After all, has either heaven or earth passed away?
So then, if I'm saved by grace through Jesus, why then do I associate following God's Law with loving Him?
In Matthew 22:37-40, when asked what the greatest commandment (from the Torah) was, Christ answered,
'“You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.” [quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5] This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [quoting from Leviticus. 19:18] On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.' (see also Mark 12:29-31 and Luke 10:26-28)
Let me ask a question: How am I to act out love towards God? I know Christianity is all about love; loving one another, loving God- being caring. But is loving God just caring for Him? Is it simply feeling emotions toward our Creator? Is it as easy as talking to Him every day, if I can even manage that much? How do you love God?
The apostle John wrote,
'For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.' (1 John 5:3)
The New Testament says we show God we love Him by keeping His commandments. 1 John 5:2 says that this is also how we love one another- by keeping God's commandments. There's a reason why every bit of the Law and the Prophets hang on love; because by doing the commandments we're showing our love for God and one another. How is this not legalism? Because every bit of the Law is a matter of the heart. Paul himself clarifies this in Romans 7:14 when he says that the Law is spiritual. It comes from within. It is not some regulations God chose to merely be acted out physically, but to emerge from the inside out. I am not introducing a new concept here; neither was John nor Paul. It is written all over the Torah.
Deuteronomy 10:12-13
'And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways, and to love Him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to keep the commandments of the LORD and His statutes which I command to you today for your good.' [Emphasis mine]
Deuteronomy 26:16-19
'This day the LORD your God commands you to observe these statutes and judgments; therefore you shall be careful to observe them with all your heart and with all your soul. Today you have proclaimed the LORD to be your God, and that you will walk in His ways and keep His statutes, His commandments, and His judgments, and that you will obey His voice. Also today the LORD has proclaimed you to be His special people, just as He promised you, that you should keep all His commandments, and that He will set you high above all nations which He has made, in praise, in name, and in honor, and that you may be a holy people to the LORD your God, just as He has spoken.' [Emphasis mine]
2 John 1:5-6
'And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it. [Emphasis mine]
Beautiful, no? The commandments of God are always in tandem with love. Did God intend for us to view His ways as arbitrary? Legalistic? Or did He want us to follow after Him with everything that we have, with all our heart, with all our soul, and with all our mind. From the very innermost depths of my heart, that part of me that yearns to be nearer to God- that's where obedience comes from. Every part of our being is supposed to passionately desire to keep God's commandments (if you still don't buy into this idea, please read, Ex. 25:2, 35:5, 35:21-22; Lev. 19:18; Deut. 4:29, 6:5-6, 11:1, 30:6, 30:15-16, 30:19-20- actually, just read all of Deuteronomy 30 - John 14:15, 14:21, 14:23-24, 15:10, Rom. 13:9, 1 John 2:3-6, 5:2-4, and 2 John 1:5-6).
The commandments of God are not burdensome (though we may not always agree). They are not a matter of legalism, and by no means are they to be acted out in hopes of salvation. I don't follow the commandments to become saved but because I'm saved. They are not how we become saved, but how we become sanctified.
What do I mean exactly by sanctified? Set apart (w)hol(l)y unto God. If we are to be like Jesus (1 John 2:6) who He Himself kept God's commandments (John 15:10) and was therefore without sin (2 Cor. 5:21), should we not as well?
'Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.' (1 Cor. 6:19-20)
Let me put it another way- if you are redeemed by Jesus Christ and belong to God, why wouldn't you want to keep His commandments?
-Ronnie
Oatmeal Joy and 6 others like this.
Ronald Gilden
Failed to mention!
Emily, I heard Fellow Heirs is a good book, but I've not read it yet. I'm going to have to get on the ball about that.
So much to read...
Emily, I heard Fellow Heirs is a good book, but I've not read it yet. I'm going to have to get on the ball about that.
So much to read...
October 5 at 4:19pm
Oatmeal Joy
When Jesus told His followers, at first, to only preach the gospel to the Jews, not to the Gentiles, since Jesus is the Word, since that was His commandment, or the law, the rules, what He wanted us to do, I mean, if we are to follow everything in the Bible, everything that Jesus wants us to do, doing the most good, what is best, since the Bible ... Read Morewas written "directly to us" (hypothetically, for sake of argument), and if we were to actually follow that commandment of only preaching to the Jews if Jesus then later told those same people to then preach (but this time, only, or not only, but instead) to everybody, to spread the gospel to every creature, I mean, how would or could or should or can we be able to follow both those commandments, to preach only to the Jews but to then also preach to everybody, too, at the same time?
October 5 at 4:28pm
Ronald Gilden
Wait... what does that have to do with your prior question?
October 5 at 5:16pm
Oatmeal Joy
Circumcision was a commandment. Preaching the gospel is also a wish. Originally, Jews were literally, physically circumcised. When the Bible was written directly to them (and for them), it told them to be circumcised. If the Bible is written to us, too, directly, since we are obviously part of that mixed multitude, then we are to do what it tells us to do, too, which also means that we are to physically get circumcised, moreover.
Now, if we choose to decline from physical circumcision, if we choose to take up the concept of spiritual circumcision, instead, then we do so within the context and (hopefully) the rules of interpretation and/or application. If the Bible was written strait to us, directly, then there would be no need for this modification, this application, because we would just take the Old Testament and do exactly as it says. If God is always the same then He would have to require literal circumcision, because if it was was good enough for them back then, and since the Bible is written directly to us, then who are we to not get circumcised?
Ronnie, personally, I believe in spiritual circumcision, and you described it right. But I can only believe in that if the Bible is not directly written to us. Because if the Bible was written right to me then why would I have to apply it? Application is modification. When I turn apply physical circumcision, when I tweak it into the concept of spiritual circumcision, then I do so out of application.... Read More
Application is very important to me. I believe that we can apply the whole Bible to us, for us. We can follow the whole Bible, but only through application. But application is dependent on it's original intent when it was written to those people, back then, back in that culture. But if the Bible was written to us, too, then why would we need application?
Now, if we choose to decline from physical circumcision, if we choose to take up the concept of spiritual circumcision, instead, then we do so within the context and (hopefully) the rules of interpretation and/or application. If the Bible was written strait to us, directly, then there would be no need for this modification, this application, because we would just take the Old Testament and do exactly as it says. If God is always the same then He would have to require literal circumcision, because if it was was good enough for them back then, and since the Bible is written directly to us, then who are we to not get circumcised?
Ronnie, personally, I believe in spiritual circumcision, and you described it right. But I can only believe in that if the Bible is not directly written to us. Because if the Bible was written right to me then why would I have to apply it? Application is modification. When I turn apply physical circumcision, when I tweak it into the concept of spiritual circumcision, then I do so out of application.... Read More
Application is very important to me. I believe that we can apply the whole Bible to us, for us. We can follow the whole Bible, but only through application. But application is dependent on it's original intent when it was written to those people, back then, back in that culture. But if the Bible was written to us, too, then why would we need application?
October 5 at 5:51pm
Ronald Gilden
Joey, I'm having a hard time following you sir.
Are you saying that all of the commandments are spiritual only, by application? I believe they certainly start from the spirit, but they work their way outward physically, just like with Abraham. I'm just guessing, but I have a feeling that if commandments are only ascentive spiritual things then some of them are going to become very, very confusing.
Are you saying that all of the commandments are spiritual only, by application? I believe they certainly start from the spirit, but they work their way outward physically, just like with Abraham. I'm just guessing, but I have a feeling that if commandments are only ascentive spiritual things then some of them are going to become very, very confusing.
October 5 at 6:31pm
Oatmeal Joy
Ronnie, on one hand, some make the Bible to be only spiritual. They use that as an excuse to why they don't have to do certain things. That is a failure in interpretation, and then application. But then on the other hand, others make the Bible to be too literal. For example (& this is a really bad example), if God told Noah to build an ark, if the Bible is written right to us, then that commandment is to us, and quite literally we are to then build an ark. And a world flood is coming, too, then (never mind that rainbow which contradicts any possible future world floods).
But I would like to ask for a third hand. I believe that the Bible is both very spiritual but also quite physical, quite literal within reason.
I also believe that you agree with me. That the Bible is literal but also spiritual. We are to follow all the commandments. But I am only over-emphasizing application because I think that is what determines how we are to follow those commandments. ... Read More
It is only my prayer that we follow all the commandments (which is what you are saying, too) in the best ways possible (out of the right love, not fear, but out of the right intention, motive, perspective, spiritual desire, principle, direction, heart, soul, mind, spirit, body, life, breath). And that is the only reason why I blabber about application.
But I would like to ask for a third hand. I believe that the Bible is both very spiritual but also quite physical, quite literal within reason.
I also believe that you agree with me. That the Bible is literal but also spiritual. We are to follow all the commandments. But I am only over-emphasizing application because I think that is what determines how we are to follow those commandments. ... Read More
It is only my prayer that we follow all the commandments (which is what you are saying, too) in the best ways possible (out of the right love, not fear, but out of the right intention, motive, perspective, spiritual desire, principle, direction, heart, soul, mind, spirit, body, life, breath). And that is the only reason why I blabber about application.
October 5 at 8:29pm
Jeffrey Walters
that's an amazing thing, to observe the torah. ronnie, your "kind" seem to be multiplying. it's like attack of the clones or something. but either way, after reading your post (which was like something else i've read recently) i once again was stumped with a kajillion questions which in turn lead me to the scriptures which... in turn, only makes me... Read More cross-eyed. i once told davey sheppard that i admire his ambition to follow the torah (though insane, to me) but i concluded with these words, which seems to be the conclusion every time.
we live by the spirit, not by the written word. with that in mind, if adhering to the ordinances in the torah has produced something GOOD in you, then by all means, continue in your path of sanctification.
we live by the spirit, not by the written word. with that in mind, if adhering to the ordinances in the torah has produced something GOOD in you, then by all means, continue in your path of sanctification.
October 5 at 9:26pm
Oatmeal Joy
I believe in the spirit of the law, which dominates over the exact details to the law. I believe in following the spirit of the law (which lies underneath the written) via interpretation, application. Sabbath is Saturday. The Lord's Day, that Jesus resurrecting day, is Sunday. Can you keep both the Sabbath and the Lord's Day? If you had to pick just one day, could you?
I believe in actually following "all applicable commandments," literally, physically, not just spiritual. But I only want to obey out of that right heart, the right intention. And I will only want to do so through correct observation, exegesis, interpretation, and then application.
Are we to always follow the rules literally apart from application? There are so many rules from Scriptures. Men's head are to be shaved. During war, at times, armies were commanded to even kill women and children. A tooth for a tooth. An eye for an eye. Can we follow that? Or do we have to stick with the golden rule? Are we to sell all our possessions like some early churches did? Are we to sacrifice? Do we need priests? Kosher doesn't sound too bad. Don't wear makeup. Hosea was commanded to marry a prostitute. Solomon had hundreds of wives. Obviously, some of these are not actually rules. They are just what happened. And the list goes on. And many of them may or may not contradict each other. And apart from application, perhaps, such a contradiction would then have to make God out to be a liar or worse (this could be continued, but anyways).................... Read More
On Sabbath, you can only walk a certain distance. Remember the things that Jesus did on the Sabbath? If anybody could follow the Torah, it would have been Jesus. So, did Jesus fail?
I believe in actually following "all applicable commandments," literally, physically, not just spiritual. But I only want to obey out of that right heart, the right intention. And I will only want to do so through correct observation, exegesis, interpretation, and then application.
Are we to always follow the rules literally apart from application? There are so many rules from Scriptures. Men's head are to be shaved. During war, at times, armies were commanded to even kill women and children. A tooth for a tooth. An eye for an eye. Can we follow that? Or do we have to stick with the golden rule? Are we to sell all our possessions like some early churches did? Are we to sacrifice? Do we need priests? Kosher doesn't sound too bad. Don't wear makeup. Hosea was commanded to marry a prostitute. Solomon had hundreds of wives. Obviously, some of these are not actually rules. They are just what happened. And the list goes on. And many of them may or may not contradict each other. And apart from application, perhaps, such a contradiction would then have to make God out to be a liar or worse (this could be continued, but anyways).................... Read More
On Sabbath, you can only walk a certain distance. Remember the things that Jesus did on the Sabbath? If anybody could follow the Torah, it would have been Jesus. So, did Jesus fail?
October 5 at 10:51pm
Ronald Gilden
Jeff! It's great to hear from you friend!
Our kind are forever and eternal. We cannot be stopped and we cannot be bargained with. Fear.
Uh... beyond that- someone wrote something similar to this? Who? I should like to know who I'm plagiarizing. If there's stuff floating around speaking on such matters, then I have no business doing so. That is to say- I can write about other things.... Read More
I'm happy to hear that, at the very least you were plagued (maybe a poor word choice on my part) with questions. I would absolutely love to hear some (or all... maybe... kabillion seems like a lot) of them if you wouldn't mind indulging me. I'm trying to figure out where this presented writing leads others, mentally.
Good ole Davey Sheppard- curious how that conversation went...
I think I understand what you're saying about living by the spirit, but sometimes (...) I'm stupid, so you may have to indulge me further if I'm reading what you said incorrectly.
If we live only by the spirit and not the commandments of God, then were are the standards of right and wrong? If my spirit tells me to I should murder someone, am I still right by living by the spirit? Even if we're saying that we live by the Holy Spirit- if I steal and say that the Holy Spirit led me to do it, am I wrong by doing so? There has to be a balance between the two- otherwise we could be led ANYWHERE. I can't imagine this if fully what you mean, so please, correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding.
I know Paul says in Romans 3:31
'Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.'
Does that change anything?
Love you man.
Our kind are forever and eternal. We cannot be stopped and we cannot be bargained with. Fear.
Uh... beyond that- someone wrote something similar to this? Who? I should like to know who I'm plagiarizing. If there's stuff floating around speaking on such matters, then I have no business doing so. That is to say- I can write about other things.... Read More
I'm happy to hear that, at the very least you were plagued (maybe a poor word choice on my part) with questions. I would absolutely love to hear some (or all... maybe... kabillion seems like a lot) of them if you wouldn't mind indulging me. I'm trying to figure out where this presented writing leads others, mentally.
Good ole Davey Sheppard- curious how that conversation went...
I think I understand what you're saying about living by the spirit, but sometimes (...) I'm stupid, so you may have to indulge me further if I'm reading what you said incorrectly.
If we live only by the spirit and not the commandments of God, then were are the standards of right and wrong? If my spirit tells me to I should murder someone, am I still right by living by the spirit? Even if we're saying that we live by the Holy Spirit- if I steal and say that the Holy Spirit led me to do it, am I wrong by doing so? There has to be a balance between the two- otherwise we could be led ANYWHERE. I can't imagine this if fully what you mean, so please, correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding.
I know Paul says in Romans 3:31
'Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.'
Does that change anything?
Love you man.
October 6 at 7:55am
Ronald Gilden
Joey, wow man. I just want to pause and let you know how much I appreciated your last two posts... I completely understood you! And for the most part, I agree with you. Can you speak like this always?
However, I will argue with you on a few points. Nowhere in the Bible is 'the Lord's Day' referred to as Sunday. In fact quite opposite, repeatedly the Sabbath day is called 'the Sabbath of the Lord' (Ex. 20:8-11) and it is 'holy unto God' (Ex. 31:13-17). Which day is the day God blessed and called holy? More to the point Joey, which day did God command us to worship Him on?
We were never commanded by God to start worshiping Him on Sunday. That's something we chose to do later- instead of keeping His commandments. If it came down to it, who's right? Us or God?
... Read More
And I absolutely believe that Jesus kept the Torah- how else was He sinless? Jesus said in John 15:10 that He kept all of the Torah. Can I ask you where in the Bible it says you can only walk a certain distance on the Sabbath?
I found this unexpectedly and it made me laugh.
The Lord's Day...
http://www.biblegateway.com/topical/Lord-S-Day/Nave
However, I will argue with you on a few points. Nowhere in the Bible is 'the Lord's Day' referred to as Sunday. In fact quite opposite, repeatedly the Sabbath day is called 'the Sabbath of the Lord' (Ex. 20:8-11) and it is 'holy unto God' (Ex. 31:13-17). Which day is the day God blessed and called holy? More to the point Joey, which day did God command us to worship Him on?
We were never commanded by God to start worshiping Him on Sunday. That's something we chose to do later- instead of keeping His commandments. If it came down to it, who's right? Us or God?
... Read More
And I absolutely believe that Jesus kept the Torah- how else was He sinless? Jesus said in John 15:10 that He kept all of the Torah. Can I ask you where in the Bible it says you can only walk a certain distance on the Sabbath?
I found this unexpectedly and it made me laugh.
The Lord's Day...
http://www.biblegateway.co
October 6 at 8:44am
Oatmeal Joy
Jeff is describing mature spiritually. Obviously, initially, if we let our emotions guide us, guide our spirit man, then we may just feel that it is right, that God is telling us to kill someday (excuse me for this exaggerated illustration), for example. The spirit of the law are principles. They never change. They are always true. Because they derive directly from God. Principles are directly for us. They are to us. God is spirit. God is truth. God is love. Some things are eternal. These things are universal. Things like these are the only things that are transferable (which is a more direct than application).
Eve was questioned with the letter of the law back in that garden. "You go girl, it didn't really say that you couldn't hang out near this party tree, yo." The exact details to that law could be twisted. You can always find a loop hole. Did God really say that? Dig God really say this, point blank? Lest you die? Hell no? What? Did you say Hell? You cannot say Hell? The Bible says you're going to Hell if you say just Hell. Just kidding. Or I apologize.
But commandments derive from principles. Principles are forever. And so is God. God is the I Am. He is constant. He is outside time. His ways are higher than ours. Principles are of the spirit. Commandments rely on that. Commandments must root from that. Which also include prayer for guidance.... Read More
If you feel that you must kill somebody. You go back to the details to the law. You read "Thou shalt not murder." And then you read about war. You read that there is a time to love and a time to kill. And as you look for the answer, you do not rest on the exact words. One passage may talk about killing. But the other may talk about not killing. But as we read it. As we fellowship with others. As we talk to others about and really struggle about it. As we pray. We begin seeing the spirit behind those details, those letters, those exact words. Eventually, we may just sense our need to emphasize grace. If God is love then he is both a God of justice and a God of grace. As humans, there is no way we can balance between those two. Justice involves killing. But then again, everything I am writing here is only what I think. It comes from application, deriving from kabillions of verses. Ok, I just wanted to use that Jeff word, too.
The Lord's Day is something that they started doing. True. In the book of Acts, they started small groups, church everyday, Bible studies. Years later, The Salvation Army started. The word "Trinity" is not even in the Bible. The Bible says "Do not murder." But He told some kill.
There are a lot of things that the Bible does not talk about. If we do not live according to the spirit. If we do not try applying it to us. Then we may get hung up on specific situations. I wish we could just have all principles on speed dial. When we stuck in something, we should be able to call them up. "Dear principles, wassup baby, what should I do, sugar?" But what do we do in specific situations. Can we take drugs? Watch TV? Specifically, apart from application, apart from the spirit, we would have to permit anything that is not specifically mentioned in the letter of the law.
And if you really want me to answer your other questions. Like, did Jesus really break the letter to the law? Or did He break the laws of man? Well. If this is really important then I will be right back with more.
Eve was questioned with the letter of the law back in that garden. "You go girl, it didn't really say that you couldn't hang out near this party tree, yo." The exact details to that law could be twisted. You can always find a loop hole. Did God really say that? Dig God really say this, point blank? Lest you die? Hell no? What? Did you say Hell? You cannot say Hell? The Bible says you're going to Hell if you say just Hell. Just kidding. Or I apologize.
But commandments derive from principles. Principles are forever. And so is God. God is the I Am. He is constant. He is outside time. His ways are higher than ours. Principles are of the spirit. Commandments rely on that. Commandments must root from that. Which also include prayer for guidance.... Read More
If you feel that you must kill somebody. You go back to the details to the law. You read "Thou shalt not murder." And then you read about war. You read that there is a time to love and a time to kill. And as you look for the answer, you do not rest on the exact words. One passage may talk about killing. But the other may talk about not killing. But as we read it. As we fellowship with others. As we talk to others about and really struggle about it. As we pray. We begin seeing the spirit behind those details, those letters, those exact words. Eventually, we may just sense our need to emphasize grace. If God is love then he is both a God of justice and a God of grace. As humans, there is no way we can balance between those two. Justice involves killing. But then again, everything I am writing here is only what I think. It comes from application, deriving from kabillions of verses. Ok, I just wanted to use that Jeff word, too.
The Lord's Day is something that they started doing. True. In the book of Acts, they started small groups, church everyday, Bible studies. Years later, The Salvation Army started. The word "Trinity" is not even in the Bible. The Bible says "Do not murder." But He told some kill.
There are a lot of things that the Bible does not talk about. If we do not live according to the spirit. If we do not try applying it to us. Then we may get hung up on specific situations. I wish we could just have all principles on speed dial. When we stuck in something, we should be able to call them up. "Dear principles, wassup baby, what should I do, sugar?" But what do we do in specific situations. Can we take drugs? Watch TV? Specifically, apart from application, apart from the spirit, we would have to permit anything that is not specifically mentioned in the letter of the law.
And if you really want me to answer your other questions. Like, did Jesus really break the letter to the law? Or did He break the laws of man? Well. If this is really important then I will be right back with more.
October 6 at 11:17am
Jeffrey Walters
ron, so i appreciate your response. i was afraid you might be offended, but i'm impressed. so when i speak of the spirit i refer to when paul seems to make a distinction on how we should observe the "letter" or written law. in romans, also galatians, his tone is one of newness. at least that's the impression i (and a lot of scholars) get. so in the... Read More newness of the spirit we live, and more specifically, we belong, to a new covenant (jer 31:31-34). the law is "written on our hearts" and that can maybe be interpreted differently, but nonetheless we know that now God is with us. he walks with us. with this in mind, know that the spirit would never lead you away from the law. the spirit IS the law just the same as Jesus IS the word. it's always been this way. the key, in my opinion, is to recognize the written word (law) but to also put it in its place (as did paul). the law is here to make us aware of our sin, not to save us. it only brings death, technically, but through the spirit and by the spirit we are redeemed.
October 7 at 9:21am
Jeffrey Walters
to conclude, and follow up with my first post, i firmly believe that IF the spirit has led someone to observe the law (even a gentile), and i mean specifically the entire law (including the weird ones), then by all means good luck. i am only a man, so i cannot fully wrap my mind around why the spirit would do this in our modern day world. ... Read Morepersonally, i've never been lead to follow the torah. maybe it is destiny that i someday will, maybe not. i just pray that wherever we are lead we produce fruit for the kingdom, which begins inside and works itself outward.
and no, you haven't plagiarized haha. i meant, i've been involved in discussions like these before. and if you want my honest advice, if you really want to here questions and to debate your beliefs further, don't be shy. go read the scholars' work. read ever opposing (legit) piece you can find that will push you to the edge. i say this because sometimes we christians forget that one must view a beam of light by looking into is as well as observing it from the outside.
and no, you haven't plagiarized haha. i meant, i've been involved in discussions like these before. and if you want my honest advice, if you really want to here questions and to debate your beliefs further, don't be shy. go read the scholars' work. read ever opposing (legit) piece you can find that will push you to the edge. i say this because sometimes we christians forget that one must view a beam of light by looking into is as well as observing it from the outside.
October 7 at 9:28am
Oatmeal Joy
I believe in principle. Principle is God. Principles are God. Are the trinity. Is the trinity. God is spirit. Spirit is Jesus. Jesus is spirit (& man). Jesus is word. Jesus is the Word. The Word is for us. The Word was not originally written in English. The Word was written through flesh, through hands, through the Bible author's spirit, their personality, but through God's spirit. The Word was written from and through the spirit. This spirit is the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost, that dove, that fire, that water, that wind, that breath of life, that mediator, that counsel, that soul, that mojo, that brother in high places. The spirit is Jesus. Jesus is light. Jesus breaths out that spirit. Jesus is the face to God, of God, for God, through God. I believe principles are everlasting truth. Principles are eternal. Principles do not change. Principles are universal. Principles are not one dimensional. Principles cannot change. Principles cannot be added to. Principles cannot be improved. Principles are perfect. Principles are truths. Principles go beyond commandments. Principles are practical. Principles are directly applicable. Principles might be easier to recognized within Proverbs. I believe that we cannot live without principles. I believe that principles are the keys to the doors to our life. Principles are our gateway to how we are to think, live, walk, talk, do things, make things, to how we are to love, to laugh, to learn, to think, to wait, to help out, to reach out, to be holy (or not).
Principles are light. Principles are not sin. Principles are what is best.
Principles giggle the Word. Principles are gold. The Word is that earth. That is why we are to dig. To eat. To discover, not invent, truth.
... Read More
However, God did not throw just gold at us. He did not just give us principles. I do not think we could handle that. I do not think we could relate, identify, or understand strait truth from Heaven. For example. Jesus is not God's son. Not literally. Not in the way that we understand it. Because God did not have a wife. God probably didn't give birth to Jesus in space. I mean, back before there was space. Instead, there is truth in that statement. That Jesus is like God's son. They have a bond, a relationship. And how else would we relate to that? If we were to take the Bible, without the spirit, then we may miss out. I do not then mean that there was no real world flood. And the list goes on. But I am saying that principles are in the Bible, but within the houses of programs. Principles can help us. They can help us do what we must do. Principles can help us develop commandments. Commandments are not always directly related or derived from pure principle. Some commandments are connected to programs.
I believe that God illustrates principles (which will help us do what we must do) through programs. Programs are specific application to the principles. When Moses wrote the first five books to our Bible, the Torah, God's spirit guided him, as they were in the desert, to bring to life some truth that will help them as they prepare for the war against terrorists. I mean, against Jericho. Moses did not make up the stories about creation and so forth. But it was written directly to those people at that time. It was written to illustrate God's agenda. To show how God does things. To show how we do things in specific circumstances. There were lessons that can be taken from it. At the time, it served it's purpose. However, of course, it still has a purpose. But even Israel didn't take it in directly. When they read God's programs (what He did, what the people did), they applied them. They did not just build an ark.
I was telling Blake, just yesterday, that I don't have a problem with following. Jeff agrees. But I don't think it can be done in a direct way. For example, I think Deuteronomy talks about not shaving your head. You do not want to identify with pagan countries. You want to be separate. You want to be in the world. Not of it, so to speak. If we take that literally, we could refrain from bald heads. That is understandable. I don't think the Bible is directly telling us to do that. That was merely the program at that time. But if we apply that principle to us first, then, through application, then we may find ourselves with hair on our head. But it is not going to be because we are just obeying the Word, directly. I mean, the principle, behind that head thing is the same. But how we do it may not be the same. The program may be different. I must not assume. I will not say that it is ok to shave your head. But I will not say that it is not ok just because they were told not to. We must bring the principle and apply the principle, not the program.
Apply the principle, not the program.
However, if we take the shaving head thing and we do not take the principle out of it and apply it, if we just take the program from it and say that we can't just only do this one thing. Then we may miss out on other things. Say, for example, what about certain clothes. Or piercings. Or somehow getting identified in another way. I mean, if we do not want to be associated with the wrong crowd, then what are we going to do? If I don't want people to think that I'm a nerd then I will just take off my glasses. Ok, that was a joke. It might not be that easy. I may have to change my clothes, how I talk, what I know, what I continue to learn, where I go, who I hang out with. But when I do those things, I do so out of application. I take the program and I dissect the truth, the principles out of it. I am not trying to say that you do not know any of this. I just really enjoy writing. And all of this helps me because I am still learning how to write.
But please dissect the principles from the programs.
Principles are light. Principles are not sin. Principles are what is best.
Principles giggle the Word. Principles are gold. The Word is that earth. That is why we are to dig. To eat. To discover, not invent, truth.
... Read More
However, God did not throw just gold at us. He did not just give us principles. I do not think we could handle that. I do not think we could relate, identify, or understand strait truth from Heaven. For example. Jesus is not God's son. Not literally. Not in the way that we understand it. Because God did not have a wife. God probably didn't give birth to Jesus in space. I mean, back before there was space. Instead, there is truth in that statement. That Jesus is like God's son. They have a bond, a relationship. And how else would we relate to that? If we were to take the Bible, without the spirit, then we may miss out. I do not then mean that there was no real world flood. And the list goes on. But I am saying that principles are in the Bible, but within the houses of programs. Principles can help us. They can help us do what we must do. Principles can help us develop commandments. Commandments are not always directly related or derived from pure principle. Some commandments are connected to programs.
I believe that God illustrates principles (which will help us do what we must do) through programs. Programs are specific application to the principles. When Moses wrote the first five books to our Bible, the Torah, God's spirit guided him, as they were in the desert, to bring to life some truth that will help them as they prepare for the war against terrorists. I mean, against Jericho. Moses did not make up the stories about creation and so forth. But it was written directly to those people at that time. It was written to illustrate God's agenda. To show how God does things. To show how we do things in specific circumstances. There were lessons that can be taken from it. At the time, it served it's purpose. However, of course, it still has a purpose. But even Israel didn't take it in directly. When they read God's programs (what He did, what the people did), they applied them. They did not just build an ark.
I was telling Blake, just yesterday, that I don't have a problem with following. Jeff agrees. But I don't think it can be done in a direct way. For example, I think Deuteronomy talks about not shaving your head. You do not want to identify with pagan countries. You want to be separate. You want to be in the world. Not of it, so to speak. If we take that literally, we could refrain from bald heads. That is understandable. I don't think the Bible is directly telling us to do that. That was merely the program at that time. But if we apply that principle to us first, then, through application, then we may find ourselves with hair on our head. But it is not going to be because we are just obeying the Word, directly. I mean, the principle, behind that head thing is the same. But how we do it may not be the same. The program may be different. I must not assume. I will not say that it is ok to shave your head. But I will not say that it is not ok just because they were told not to. We must bring the principle and apply the principle, not the program.
Apply the principle, not the program.
However, if we take the shaving head thing and we do not take the principle out of it and apply it, if we just take the program from it and say that we can't just only do this one thing. Then we may miss out on other things. Say, for example, what about certain clothes. Or piercings. Or somehow getting identified in another way. I mean, if we do not want to be associated with the wrong crowd, then what are we going to do? If I don't want people to think that I'm a nerd then I will just take off my glasses. Ok, that was a joke. It might not be that easy. I may have to change my clothes, how I talk, what I know, what I continue to learn, where I go, who I hang out with. But when I do those things, I do so out of application. I take the program and I dissect the truth, the principles out of it. I am not trying to say that you do not know any of this. I just really enjoy writing. And all of this helps me because I am still learning how to write.
But please dissect the principles from the programs.
October 7 at 1:05pm
Oatmeal Joy
But please dissect the principles from the programs.
October 7 at 1:17pm
Ronald Gilden
Jeff, you are a very smart man. Why didn't we ever get to have these conversations in person when you were up in Portland years ago?
Let's discuss the new covenant- are you implying that the Torah that will- or is being- written on our hearts is different than the one God gave through Moses? I guess more specifically, in the new covenant it says that the Torah will be written on our hearts- but no new law is ever really given. And as Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-19 and Luke 16:17, the Torah isn't going away until this earth has faded away (I don't think it has as of yet)- Hebrews 8 clarifies that the problem isn't with God's commandments- but the people who left the covenant with God- that's why there needs to be a new covenant- 'cause they broke the old one.
Not only that, but is the new covenant fully in place yet? Jeremiah 31:34 says that when this new covenant happens, no one will have to teach anyone about God or even that there is a God- 'for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them...'
Does everyone know God yet? And do we still teach people about God?... Read More
Tell me about this newness of Paul? There's certainly a newness on Paul's understanding salvation comes through faith and not conversion to Judaism (the problem with most of the first century churches- most of Galatians deals with this). Even if he's merely speaking of salvation being a matter of faith and not works, that never changes what the Torah contains. You mentioned the spirit is the law and that it should never lead you away from the law. Paul agrees by saying that the law is spiritual (Rom. 7:14) but with the understanding that keeping Torah comes from your heart and soul. If we aren't keeping it first in our spirit, then why are we doing it at all? What I'm trying to get at here, is Paul was a Jew, a Pharisee, and he knew only the Torah as the Law of God- so obviously the spirit would never lead us away from God's Law- contrary, as I noted before, it is established through faith. But that doesn't change the contents of God's Law.
My point is that if we are part of the covenant- new or old- then we are Israel. And as members of this covenant, God says to walk in His ways so that we may be holy and set apart as His covenant people- but His 'ways' haven't changed.
Unless you see different laws somewhere?
I'm enjoying this very much by the way- what better way to spend time than talking about God's Word?
Let's discuss the new covenant- are you implying that the Torah that will- or is being- written on our hearts is different than the one God gave through Moses? I guess more specifically, in the new covenant it says that the Torah will be written on our hearts- but no new law is ever really given. And as Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-19 and Luke 16:17, the Torah isn't going away until this earth has faded away (I don't think it has as of yet)- Hebrews 8 clarifies that the problem isn't with God's commandments- but the people who left the covenant with God- that's why there needs to be a new covenant- 'cause they broke the old one.
Not only that, but is the new covenant fully in place yet? Jeremiah 31:34 says that when this new covenant happens, no one will have to teach anyone about God or even that there is a God- 'for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them...'
Does everyone know God yet? And do we still teach people about God?... Read More
Tell me about this newness of Paul? There's certainly a newness on Paul's understanding salvation comes through faith and not conversion to Judaism (the problem with most of the first century churches- most of Galatians deals with this). Even if he's merely speaking of salvation being a matter of faith and not works, that never changes what the Torah contains. You mentioned the spirit is the law and that it should never lead you away from the law. Paul agrees by saying that the law is spiritual (Rom. 7:14) but with the understanding that keeping Torah comes from your heart and soul. If we aren't keeping it first in our spirit, then why are we doing it at all? What I'm trying to get at here, is Paul was a Jew, a Pharisee, and he knew only the Torah as the Law of God- so obviously the spirit would never lead us away from God's Law- contrary, as I noted before, it is established through faith. But that doesn't change the contents of God's Law.
My point is that if we are part of the covenant- new or old- then we are Israel. And as members of this covenant, God says to walk in His ways so that we may be holy and set apart as His covenant people- but His 'ways' haven't changed.
Unless you see different laws somewhere?
I'm enjoying this very much by the way- what better way to spend time than talking about God's Word?
October 7 at 1:50pm
Ronald Gilden
Joey,
So if the principles of the Torah are what the Pharisees were trying to follow, why then did Jesus rebuke them asking 'Why do you keep the traditions of men and forsake the commandments of God?' On that very matter, do you think if Jesus were here and saw us not keeping Sabbath and worshiping on another day He wouldn't say something similar? 'This seems oddly familiar...' I think that's how it would start.
I do agree that there are principles behind the commandments, I'm not discounting that- but why do we- the children of God- don't even obey them anyway?
... Read More
By the way, where was that in Deuteronomy?
So if the principles of the Torah are what the Pharisees were trying to follow, why then did Jesus rebuke them asking 'Why do you keep the traditions of men and forsake the commandments of God?' On that very matter, do you think if Jesus were here and saw us not keeping Sabbath and worshiping on another day He wouldn't say something similar? 'This seems oddly familiar...' I think that's how it would start.
I do agree that there are principles behind the commandments, I'm not discounting that- but why do we- the children of God- don't even obey them anyway?
... Read More
By the way, where was that in Deuteronomy?
October 7 at 1:59pm
Oatmeal Joy
Pharisees over-emphasized programs over principles. Jesus did things on the Sabbath. The program was "Do not this and do not that!" Point blank. Jesus gave illustrations. The principle is still there. Jesus did not break God's law. Jesus stuck with the principles. Jesus did not sin. Sin goes against principles. Principles is the flesh and blood to perfection. Principles are not sin. Programs were not, either. But the program can be. Jesus rebuked traditions or programs. Jesus emphasized commandments or principles (within those commandments).
The principles, not the commandments, should be followed. I am going to get letters for that statement. I might get in trouble for saying that. But I'm still Joey Arnold, not John McCain or Barack Obama, or Abraham Lincoln, or a dolphin, and I approved this message, "Principles over commandments." Commandments and principles seem to be the same. One and the same. It seems direct. Principles may be commandments. They may sometimes be the same. But it all depends.
Programs: here are some: there are some things they were told to do: do not shave your head if, dot dot dot, or shave your slave's head, dot dot dot, do not make cuts on your body, dot dot dot. Do not be bald: Lev.21:5. http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/14-1.htm . There are principles from it. ... Read More
Ronnie,
I think that one difference is in the why or how (or in the concept to the old or new covenant). But our difference may not be merely in the whatness to what we must do. The What? The what says "Follow Jesus." The what describes the problem or the solution. The what is pretty simple. The what is in the covenant. In doing the most good. What is best. But how and why? Where is the spirit in that? You agree with motives. Doing what is right out of love. Now, I say that we are to do the principles, not the commandments, not the programs, not the letter of the law, as Jeff agreed. And you might just maybe disagree to say that we are to directly follow the commandment, directly, the law, the program, the specifics, the details, exactly, point blank, apart from application, and so on, but because it seems that we are in the same covenant. That is the main issue. I think it really comes down to the covenant or lack thereof. Opps. Did I say "Or lack thereof." How dare I write that. Or not? Hmmmmmm.
How or why we (the who) are to follow the commandments (the what) may just rest on whether we are in the old testament, right now, I mean, the old covenant, the new covenant, or are we in between the covenants, or are we after the second covenant, what does the Bible say about all of this, or are we in an age of grace, the time of the Gentiles, the not-Jews. I think the rest of this discussion page and note is all dependent on that, on whether we are or are not in an old or new or something covenant or something. Even if the Bible was written to my father, hypothetically, it still was not written to me. I think you should say "I do this because the Bible tells me so." I think you would say that, too. That is what I would say but I wouldn't just do it just because the Bible was telling me to do that. And I am not trying to say that what is right for me is not right for you, necessarily. I am not saying "You're right but then I am also right!" But whatever I am saying has something to do with this covenant thing. We should talk about covenants.
How can or does or is an old or new covenant or age of grace or whatever then influence how we may or may not do all or some of the laws or the commandments or principles or programs (depending on if it is to or for us directly or indirectly, and what about dispensations), or to why or how we do them?
The principles, not the commandments, should be followed. I am going to get letters for that statement. I might get in trouble for saying that. But I'm still Joey Arnold, not John McCain or Barack Obama, or Abraham Lincoln, or a dolphin, and I approved this message, "Principles over commandments." Commandments and principles seem to be the same. One and the same. It seems direct. Principles may be commandments. They may sometimes be the same. But it all depends.
Programs: here are some: there are some things they were told to do: do not shave your head if, dot dot dot, or shave your slave's head, dot dot dot, do not make cuts on your body, dot dot dot. Do not be bald: Lev.21:5. http://bible.cc/deuteronom
Ronnie,
I think that one difference is in the why or how (or in the concept to the old or new covenant). But our difference may not be merely in the whatness to what we must do. The What? The what says "Follow Jesus." The what describes the problem or the solution. The what is pretty simple. The what is in the covenant. In doing the most good. What is best. But how and why? Where is the spirit in that? You agree with motives. Doing what is right out of love. Now, I say that we are to do the principles, not the commandments, not the programs, not the letter of the law, as Jeff agreed. And you might just maybe disagree to say that we are to directly follow the commandment, directly, the law, the program, the specifics, the details, exactly, point blank, apart from application, and so on, but because it seems that we are in the same covenant. That is the main issue. I think it really comes down to the covenant or lack thereof. Opps. Did I say "Or lack thereof." How dare I write that. Or not? Hmmmmmm.
How or why we (the who) are to follow the commandments (the what) may just rest on whether we are in the old testament, right now, I mean, the old covenant, the new covenant, or are we in between the covenants, or are we after the second covenant, what does the Bible say about all of this, or are we in an age of grace, the time of the Gentiles, the not-Jews. I think the rest of this discussion page and note is all dependent on that, on whether we are or are not in an old or new or something covenant or something. Even if the Bible was written to my father, hypothetically, it still was not written to me. I think you should say "I do this because the Bible tells me so." I think you would say that, too. That is what I would say but I wouldn't just do it just because the Bible was telling me to do that. And I am not trying to say that what is right for me is not right for you, necessarily. I am not saying "You're right but then I am also right!" But whatever I am saying has something to do with this covenant thing. We should talk about covenants.
How can or does or is an old or new covenant or age of grace or whatever then influence how we may or may not do all or some of the laws or the commandments or principles or programs (depending on if it is to or for us directly or indirectly, and what about dispensations), or to why or how we do them?
October 7 at 3:50pm
Rhonda Elmatti
So what about Leviticus Chapter 20. Particularly verse 9 http://www.youversion.com/bible/nlt/lev/20/9
According to the law it would be completely reasonable to have me done for? right?
I don't get it.
According to the law it would be completely reasonable to have me done for? right?
I don't get it.
October 7 at 6:29pm
Oatmeal Joy
Rhonda, you dishonored Father & Mother. Lev.20:9. The Bible is to us. Bible written directly to us. Forget application. This is the law. You are right. You must be stoned. You must be done away with. Never mind "Do not murder," for you must be put to death. Never mind the need for application, for trying to apply truth to us, justice must rule, capital punishment. It is the law. I mean, if are Jewish, then this is the law. But even if you are not Jewish, the Bible was written to mix multitude. Therefore, it was written to you. If you do not submit to this commandment then you do so out of judgment. But thou shalt not judge. No picking and choosing what you follow or not. Because that would make you lukewarm. Neither hot or cold. That makes God want to puke, throw up, spit you out, throw you away, kill you, stone you, murder you, rape you. But God is love. But God does not like liars. God hates sinners. You must obey all of His commandments, laws, programs, principles. As they are one and the same. We are in the same covenant. There are no such things as dispensations. Hmmmm. There are more rules out there, too. I mean, we could try redefining that rule. We could try saying that we don't have to be stoned no more. I'm no stoner, but how could we do that? How do we get the right to say that we don't have to do, or keep Kosher, or keep the Sabbath, or Lord's Day (which is not the Sabbath), and so on?
We must also do two things at the same time:
1. Preach not to Gentiles! Preach only to Jews! Do not ever question this commandment. I eat this with oatmeal. As Jews or disciples for Jesus, we must only preach to Israel, to God's promised flock, His household, His nation, His special people (Ammi, not to be confused with Lo-Ammi, not my people as seen in Hosea): but the gospel, the kingdom, the blessings, the promises, the promise land, is not for the Gentiles: do not preach to the Gentiles, ever: as in never: do that right now, no questions asked. God wants us to do that right now since it is for us and to us, directly: http://bible.cc/matthew/10-5.htm . ... Read More
2. Preach to Gentiles. Do not just preach to the Jews. In conclusion, it is clear. We are to preach to the Gentiles and we are to not preach to the Gentiles at the same time. Totally doable. If not, I will stone you. Reminds me in Proverbs where it says that we shall answer a fool in his folly. And the next verse, or the previous verse, says that we are to not answer the fool in his folly. It says that we are and then it says that we are not. Never mind contradiction. We have to be in the same covenant. We are drafted in directly. http://bible.cc/matthew/24-14.htm .
We must also do two things at the same time:
1. Preach not to Gentiles! Preach only to Jews! Do not ever question this commandment. I eat this with oatmeal. As Jews or disciples for Jesus, we must only preach to Israel, to God's promised flock, His household, His nation, His special people (Ammi, not to be confused with Lo-Ammi, not my people as seen in Hosea): but the gospel, the kingdom, the blessings, the promises, the promise land, is not for the Gentiles: do not preach to the Gentiles, ever: as in never: do that right now, no questions asked. God wants us to do that right now since it is for us and to us, directly: http://bible.cc/matthew/10
2. Preach to Gentiles. Do not just preach to the Jews. In conclusion, it is clear. We are to preach to the Gentiles and we are to not preach to the Gentiles at the same time. Totally doable. If not, I will stone you. Reminds me in Proverbs where it says that we shall answer a fool in his folly. And the next verse, or the previous verse, says that we are to not answer the fool in his folly. It says that we are and then it says that we are not. Never mind contradiction. We have to be in the same covenant. We are drafted in directly. http://bible.cc/matthew/24
October 7 at 7:10pm
Jeffrey Walters
hmm. well, let's clear up a couple things before we get a little deeper. there are different translations of the word "law" in new and old testaments. i.e. the law of christ, the torah, or the "2 hinging laws". and about that paul guy, he wasn't a pharisee after he'd met Jesus. in fact, after saul became paul, he couldn't possibly belong to the ... Read Moresame sect that differed in some doctrine and especially behavior than that of a disciple of christ. there is a lot of material written about paul and by paul, and it is very important to fully understand his ministry if we are going to use him in our lil debate...
which is as addicting as it gets.
which is as addicting as it gets.
October 8 at 1:15am
Matthew Thomas Kurtz
Whoa, whoa, WHOA - Joey, watch what you're saying here. I don't know what was going through your head while you wrote that last post but back up a little and pay attention to what you're saying. You do realize you actually said "God wants to rape you", do you not? It doesn't seem like you're paying much attention to the answers of your questions - are you seeking truth? Because you're sounding less confused and inquisitive and more blasphemous. The question Rhonda had sounded like an honest concern and you basically used your interpretation of the scripture to tell her she has no hope.
I, personally, have a lot of trouble honoring my mother and father. As anyone who knows me knows that my mother is a hurtful, terrible mess of human tissue - am I to be raped in the name of God for this, Joey? It's paraphrasing such as this that creates cults, false religions and damned souls... Don't get me wrong, Joey - I love you, man... but if you don't have an answer, please don't answer...
On another note, I don't understand why people don't look deeper than English translations. Obviously, translation is influenced by opinion and interpretation because it's not possible to create a word-for-word translation when the English language differs so greatly from Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. This being said, all English translations are faulty. ... Read More
Let me rephrase; no English translation can be perfect. Take Exodus 20:13, the 6th Commandment, for example, "Thou shall not murder" as taken from NKJ. That's as accurate a translation you can get. People think this is a contradiction to stoning as a punishment or killing in a war, but that's an uneducated interpretation. The King James version has a terrible translation of this commandment, which is more along the lines of creating contradiction. "Thou shalt not kill."... completely ridiculous as the English word "kill" is an all-encompassing word for ending a life, whereas the original Hebrew word "ratsach" is closer translated to "murder" which refers only to the criminal act of killing; barbarously slaughtering another human being against the ways that the Law stipulates.
That all being said, I do have a question for Ronnie... Stoning, as I have already stated, is not a form of murder if it is commanded by Law. It is, however, a very severe punishment... Is it possible to have the punishment changed and the Law remain unchanged? Because it seems as if that's what has happened and I'm curious to know what you think about it... Basically, I want to know all you know about stoning... Did Jesus save us from such harsh punishments or did we simply change it ourselves? By changing the punishment, have we in fact changed the Law? If so, would one be safe to assume that God still wishes us to stone people to death?
I, personally, have a lot of trouble honoring my mother and father. As anyone who knows me knows that my mother is a hurtful, terrible mess of human tissue - am I to be raped in the name of God for this, Joey? It's paraphrasing such as this that creates cults, false religions and damned souls... Don't get me wrong, Joey - I love you, man... but if you don't have an answer, please don't answer...
On another note, I don't understand why people don't look deeper than English translations. Obviously, translation is influenced by opinion and interpretation because it's not possible to create a word-for-word translation when the English language differs so greatly from Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. This being said, all English translations are faulty. ... Read More
Let me rephrase; no English translation can be perfect. Take Exodus 20:13, the 6th Commandment, for example, "Thou shall not murder" as taken from NKJ. That's as accurate a translation you can get. People think this is a contradiction to stoning as a punishment or killing in a war, but that's an uneducated interpretation. The King James version has a terrible translation of this commandment, which is more along the lines of creating contradiction. "Thou shalt not kill."... completely ridiculous as the English word "kill" is an all-encompassing word for ending a life, whereas the original Hebrew word "ratsach" is closer translated to "murder" which refers only to the criminal act of killing; barbarously slaughtering another human being against the ways that the Law stipulates.
That all being said, I do have a question for Ronnie... Stoning, as I have already stated, is not a form of murder if it is commanded by Law. It is, however, a very severe punishment... Is it possible to have the punishment changed and the Law remain unchanged? Because it seems as if that's what has happened and I'm curious to know what you think about it... Basically, I want to know all you know about stoning... Did Jesus save us from such harsh punishments or did we simply change it ourselves? By changing the punishment, have we in fact changed the Law? If so, would one be safe to assume that God still wishes us to stone people to death?
October 8 at 1:33am
Jeffrey Walters
emily has mentioned romans 2:13 earlier in order to back her position on following the rules. paul, though, is not taking sides and saying we should follow rules. he is restating a concept where if a man is under law (lives by it) he will be judged either righteously or be condemned, just the same as if teddy (an american) lived in italy he would have to adhere to their laws, not americas.
i bring this up mainly to focus our attention back on romans, and even galatians. be careful to study this material (i suggest observing opposing study guides to get a clear viewpoint from the outside) closely.
"Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised." rom 2:25. paul talks like this alot, especially since he preaches to the gentile world. paul makes himself clear that the law was righteous and had a distinct purpose. BUT, paul is even more pressing when he speaks of a new covenant that frees us from the law that made us conscious of sin and prophesied the coming of christ himself.... Read More
"Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." gal 3:25
i bring this up mainly to focus our attention back on romans, and even galatians. be careful to study this material (i suggest observing opposing study guides to get a clear viewpoint from the outside) closely.
"Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised." rom 2:25. paul talks like this alot, especially since he preaches to the gentile world. paul makes himself clear that the law was righteous and had a distinct purpose. BUT, paul is even more pressing when he speaks of a new covenant that frees us from the law that made us conscious of sin and prophesied the coming of christ himself.... Read More
"Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." gal 3:25
October 8 at 1:33am
Jeffrey Walters
and if we have received christ, thus having the spirit to convict us and guide us, we no longer are slaves to the law but are free.
we are free from the law. this idea is everywhere in the epistles, but this is where i arrive at my questions so often with those of you who still follow the torah. why would anyone want to burden them self with so ... Read Moremany commandments, some unreasonable in our modern day times? why, especially now that you have the spirit of GOD at your side to make your will his own? and IF the spirit leads you back to the torah's plenty of rules/ordinances, what does that poduce in you that is good? we know it's not salvation, and we know you're not free, for if you follow one you follow all.
that's really all i got. any more writing and i might as well write a book. wait, that's what joey's doing. haha. but hey, ron, amen to you and the sheppard's journey. like i said in the beginning, i admire your guys' initiative, because it's something i could never do.
we are free from the law. this idea is everywhere in the epistles, but this is where i arrive at my questions so often with those of you who still follow the torah. why would anyone want to burden them self with so ... Read Moremany commandments, some unreasonable in our modern day times? why, especially now that you have the spirit of GOD at your side to make your will his own? and IF the spirit leads you back to the torah's plenty of rules/ordinances, what does that poduce in you that is good? we know it's not salvation, and we know you're not free, for if you follow one you follow all.
that's really all i got. any more writing and i might as well write a book. wait, that's what joey's doing. haha. but hey, ron, amen to you and the sheppard's journey. like i said in the beginning, i admire your guys' initiative, because it's something i could never do.
October 8 at 1:44am
Oatmeal Joy
Matt (& Rhonda),
Rape? No. I apologize. But I was simply contradicting my previous posts. Previously (originally), I said that we are to treat the Bible as if it was first written to people in a different era, a different land, a different culture, a different world (back in the old covenant). But in that last post, I decided to say the exact opposite. I decided to say that we are still in that old covenant, that we are still (contrary to Jeff's words) under the law, Paul. I decided to just say that we are to just take the Word directly. That the Bible was written not just for us but directly to us, in our face (which then means that we don't need application because it's already applied to us because it was written to us, directly). Never mind the cultural gap, the geographical gap, the chronological gap. Never mind trying to relate, to apply. Because can't we just pretend that we can do exactly as the Bible says. Since it's already applied. It's already implied. We assume that we are doing exactly as it says. Or we assume that we can. Excuse me, I just wanted to play Devil's advocate and take the other side to this story. Oh, by the way, we should also cast lots. In the New Testament, it says to not wear makeup. Don't get drunk. Don't invite bad people to your house. There are tons of things in Revelations that would be tough to obey. You can say that book was written about the future but if the Bible is written to us then so is Revelations. And therefore, that book cannot be about the future because it's about us because it was written to us. And we must obey all 66 books (not counting the other books).
Matt,... Read More
And if you don't agree with what I say, just say it. But don't I have the right to my own opinion? Blake hates it when people say this but I'm going to still say "You're right but I'm also right!" Especially about the rape thing. I can say whatever I want. Especially if I am trying. Just kidding. I hate that quote, too. Two contradictions cannot make a right. Two wrongs cannot make a right. We cannot both be right, if we were on different sides. And my opinion can be wrong. I know that it was very uncalled for. You probably didn't know that I was playing Devil's advocate. I really thought that I had an answer worth posting even if you don't understand it, yet. But do I even have the right to play games like that or to use reversed psychology?
Jeff,
Through Jesus, still, you can do your best. Someday, you might become Jewish? But day by day. Who knows where all this will lead. Maybe the Mormons got it right. We should take a trip back down to Utah. Let's keep our eyes open. We should obey something, we should do certain laws if they are applied to us, first. I think we should eat healthy. And the list goes on. But that is only what I think. I will say "But the Bible says....." And I will scream it on the mountaintops kabillions of times. Bottom-line, I think the Bible is first a history book, and second, something we can steal from. We can steal the principles from the history, the stories, and give it brand new life in this modern Weird Al world. But if I have not love then I am just reduced down to plain nuked oatmeal with colorless books.
How can we keep the Torah?
I know that we can keep the Torah (or moreover, the whole Bible) but how can we? The answer to that question still has to rest in where we fit in God's time-line, His agenda. Is there a difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament? Moreover, is there a difference between the God of the Old and the God of the New? Ok, I take that back because God never changes in character or in principles or in attributes or in attitude. I take that back. But is there a difference between what God did in the Old and what God did in the New? What's difference between what Jesus did in the Old and what He did in the New? What's the difference between what the Holy Spirit did in the Old and what He did in the New?
If there is a difference in one thing then there would also have to be a difference in another.
If God did things differently in the Old than He did in the New, then does God's people also do things differently, moreover? If there is a difference in what He did in the Old than in the New, then are we just going to do what they did in the Old or are to instead do what they did in the New? Or do you really think that there is no difference, that both God and God's people both did the same in the Old Testament and in the New Testament? If the commandments were the same in the Old and in the New then God's people had to do the same, too, moreover, or likewise! When you compare the Old with the New, what do you get? The principles are the same, for it's the same God, but are the programs different, or the specific commandments different?
If we are still in the first covenant then we should go with that. But did not Jesus come to bring a new covenant? Does not "Testament" mean "Covenant?" Would not the Old Testament be focused on the old covenant and the New Testament be focused on the new covenant? I know that Jesus is coming again to set up His kingdom, which means closure for that new covenant. I know that this new covenant is still under construction. But has not the new covenant started already?
Ronnie,
I went back to the top of this page, to your original post. I was reading it again. I like what you are saying. I think that we should all talk about what Jesus did in the New Testament. Let's talk about what Paul did. What all the disciples did. What the Apostles did. What the followers did. What the early churches, starting with Acts, were doing. What Peter did. Let's look at what they did. Moreover, let's try looking at what they did not do. Let's try figuring out why they did not do certain things. Especially the things that Jesus did not do.
Why did Jesus not do certain things?
Rape? No. I apologize. But I was simply contradicting my previous posts. Previously (originally), I said that we are to treat the Bible as if it was first written to people in a different era, a different land, a different culture, a different world (back in the old covenant). But in that last post, I decided to say the exact opposite. I decided to say that we are still in that old covenant, that we are still (contrary to Jeff's words) under the law, Paul. I decided to just say that we are to just take the Word directly. That the Bible was written not just for us but directly to us, in our face (which then means that we don't need application because it's already applied to us because it was written to us, directly). Never mind the cultural gap, the geographical gap, the chronological gap. Never mind trying to relate, to apply. Because can't we just pretend that we can do exactly as the Bible says. Since it's already applied. It's already implied. We assume that we are doing exactly as it says. Or we assume that we can. Excuse me, I just wanted to play Devil's advocate and take the other side to this story. Oh, by the way, we should also cast lots. In the New Testament, it says to not wear makeup. Don't get drunk. Don't invite bad people to your house. There are tons of things in Revelations that would be tough to obey. You can say that book was written about the future but if the Bible is written to us then so is Revelations. And therefore, that book cannot be about the future because it's about us because it was written to us. And we must obey all 66 books (not counting the other books).
Matt,... Read More
And if you don't agree with what I say, just say it. But don't I have the right to my own opinion? Blake hates it when people say this but I'm going to still say "You're right but I'm also right!" Especially about the rape thing. I can say whatever I want. Especially if I am trying. Just kidding. I hate that quote, too. Two contradictions cannot make a right. Two wrongs cannot make a right. We cannot both be right, if we were on different sides. And my opinion can be wrong. I know that it was very uncalled for. You probably didn't know that I was playing Devil's advocate. I really thought that I had an answer worth posting even if you don't understand it, yet. But do I even have the right to play games like that or to use reversed psychology?
Jeff,
Through Jesus, still, you can do your best. Someday, you might become Jewish? But day by day. Who knows where all this will lead. Maybe the Mormons got it right. We should take a trip back down to Utah. Let's keep our eyes open. We should obey something, we should do certain laws if they are applied to us, first. I think we should eat healthy. And the list goes on. But that is only what I think. I will say "But the Bible says....." And I will scream it on the mountaintops kabillions of times. Bottom-line, I think the Bible is first a history book, and second, something we can steal from. We can steal the principles from the history, the stories, and give it brand new life in this modern Weird Al world. But if I have not love then I am just reduced down to plain nuked oatmeal with colorless books.
How can we keep the Torah?
I know that we can keep the Torah (or moreover, the whole Bible) but how can we? The answer to that question still has to rest in where we fit in God's time-line, His agenda. Is there a difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament? Moreover, is there a difference between the God of the Old and the God of the New? Ok, I take that back because God never changes in character or in principles or in attributes or in attitude. I take that back. But is there a difference between what God did in the Old and what God did in the New? What's difference between what Jesus did in the Old and what He did in the New? What's the difference between what the Holy Spirit did in the Old and what He did in the New?
If there is a difference in one thing then there would also have to be a difference in another.
If God did things differently in the Old than He did in the New, then does God's people also do things differently, moreover? If there is a difference in what He did in the Old than in the New, then are we just going to do what they did in the Old or are to instead do what they did in the New? Or do you really think that there is no difference, that both God and God's people both did the same in the Old Testament and in the New Testament? If the commandments were the same in the Old and in the New then God's people had to do the same, too, moreover, or likewise! When you compare the Old with the New, what do you get? The principles are the same, for it's the same God, but are the programs different, or the specific commandments different?
If we are still in the first covenant then we should go with that. But did not Jesus come to bring a new covenant? Does not "Testament" mean "Covenant?" Would not the Old Testament be focused on the old covenant and the New Testament be focused on the new covenant? I know that Jesus is coming again to set up His kingdom, which means closure for that new covenant. I know that this new covenant is still under construction. But has not the new covenant started already?
Ronnie,
I went back to the top of this page, to your original post. I was reading it again. I like what you are saying. I think that we should all talk about what Jesus did in the New Testament. Let's talk about what Paul did. What all the disciples did. What the Apostles did. What the followers did. What the early churches, starting with Acts, were doing. What Peter did. Let's look at what they did. Moreover, let's try looking at what they did not do. Let's try figuring out why they did not do certain things. Especially the things that Jesus did not do.
Why did Jesus not do certain things?
October 8 at 3:32am
Rhonda Elmatti
Yay! Everything Matt said was exactly what I was wondering in regards to changing the law's punishment. I thought maybe I could get away with saying it in very few words, I was wrong. I'd like to think maybe Ronnie understood what I was getting at.
Joey - I don't know you, you don't know me. Don't you think, as we are two strangers, playing the ... Read Moredevil's advocate could be potentially damaging or even detrimental to my walk or maybe even lack of a walk with God? I understand the thrill of debate and there is at times nothing wrong with playing devil's advocate but when you're speaking about God and making completely false statements (God wants to rape you) that speak in complete opposition of his character, you should expect to get a rise out of people. In fact, when you play devils advocate I would figure you're wanting that rise out of people, but, I would interject that speaking against God's character to a stranger in front of a number of other strangers is a terrible idea.
So, Joey, I've read all of your comments here and I devised you were speaking precariously and there was no way you meant and believed everything you said as you mentioned, you completely contradict yourself. My only hope is that you understand the danger of speaking in any way other than in truth. Despite that fact that I understood your position the statement still stings. God is my father and the love of my life, it offends me when people make false statements about him.
Joey - I don't know you, you don't know me. Don't you think, as we are two strangers, playing the ... Read Moredevil's advocate could be potentially damaging or even detrimental to my walk or maybe even lack of a walk with God? I understand the thrill of debate and there is at times nothing wrong with playing devil's advocate but when you're speaking about God and making completely false statements (God wants to rape you) that speak in complete opposition of his character, you should expect to get a rise out of people. In fact, when you play devils advocate I would figure you're wanting that rise out of people, but, I would interject that speaking against God's character to a stranger in front of a number of other strangers is a terrible idea.
So, Joey, I've read all of your comments here and I devised you were speaking precariously and there was no way you meant and believed everything you said as you mentioned, you completely contradict yourself. My only hope is that you understand the danger of speaking in any way other than in truth. Despite that fact that I understood your position the statement still stings. God is my father and the love of my life, it offends me when people make false statements about him.
October 8 at 5:41am
Oatmeal Joy
Connection.
I don't know if I'm being damaging but it sure does feel that way, and rape could only be worse. But if one thing is false then the other should follow. If I say something that is obviously evil (don't ask me why) then why won't you then throw out the related thoughts in that particular comment? Why won't you connect the dots and say "If this one thing is obviously fallacy then these other things, hmmmm, I don't know....." But everything I was saying was on a train of thought. As soon as you connect all those dots, you would get the wrong picture, you would be on the wrong train.
If you notice one false idea, that God must rape us, one dot in a picture or one cart to a train, then why would you not reject the rest of the train and jump off, why won't you reject the other dots, the whole picture, and run the opposite direction?... Read More
Rhonda,
False statements come in packages. If one thought is wrong, like God resorting to rape, then why the related ideas not be? You asked if you should be stoned, and I answered with a yes. I basically just answered with an over-the-top yes. I exaggerated possible truth. If we were to believe that God may just strike us down dead when we run too far away from God then we may disqualify Him from being forgiving. That is why He died for us. Not only would God not rape us, but rather, we have already raped him, I mean, we have already cheated on Him, as did Gomer to prophet Hosea (as seen in the book of Hosea: http://www.teamcrossworld.com/blog/2009/07/hosea-an-interesting-story-of-prostitution/ ). That book, Hosea, in the Old Testament, was an illustration of God's grace. Hosea's wife, Gomer, was a prostitute, but God commanded Hosea to marry her. She may have not raped people but close enough.
Jesus grace over Father justice.
I believe that the Old Testament emphasizes and illustrates God the Father in the color of justice over the waves of grace. God is love. Love is both justice on the left and grace on the right. Since we read left to right, we will first see God's justice. As a Heavenly Father, His children, Israel, were in need of the law. Children must be told what to do. They do not have as much freedom to make decisions. Parents will often tell kids to brush their teeth, clean their room, time for dinner, do this, point blank, right now, in this particular way. As our Father, God told His Nation to not steal, and to clean up their room, so to speak. And God spank His kids, too. Being stoned was an act of love, specifically one of justice. Love cannot exist without justice. Heaven cannot exist without Hell.
The New Testament then made the transition into grace, as Jesus and the Holy Spirit became emphasis in this last part (this New Testament). When I was a child, I thought as a child, but when I became a man, I put away childish things (1 Cor.13:11). The law, specifically in the Old, was mainly set as this school-master: http://biblebrowser.com/romans/2-20.htm .
The law was mainly there to be that mirror, so that we can see that we need Jesus.
If we are to grow up then we should then be given more mature freedom to make decisions to what we do. As we grow up, we become more in-tuned with the spirit of the law. The mere words to the law was for children, those who are too young to understand the spirit, or as Paul calls it, meat. If the spirit guides you back to certain laws then you should do that. If you are led to follow the law in a certain way then you should do that. I don't mean that we are to just do whatever we emotionally feel like. Rather, I'm saying that it's possible, as we know God's Word, that we will know it, spiritually, when God speaks to us:
Through the good kind of fear: through the spirit: can we be led towards the right direction in what we do, say, think, etc: http://bible.cc/psalms/111-10.htm .
How we are to follow Jesus, depends on, first, how we look at Him, at how we define Love's justice and grace. It really depends on how we see justice and grace together, in how the relate, in how they work together, in how God balances the two, and in how we cannot through our strength.
Emphasize Love's grace over justice!
I don't know if I'm being damaging but it sure does feel that way, and rape could only be worse. But if one thing is false then the other should follow. If I say something that is obviously evil (don't ask me why) then why won't you then throw out the related thoughts in that particular comment? Why won't you connect the dots and say "If this one thing is obviously fallacy then these other things, hmmmm, I don't know....." But everything I was saying was on a train of thought. As soon as you connect all those dots, you would get the wrong picture, you would be on the wrong train.
If you notice one false idea, that God must rape us, one dot in a picture or one cart to a train, then why would you not reject the rest of the train and jump off, why won't you reject the other dots, the whole picture, and run the opposite direction?... Read More
Rhonda,
False statements come in packages. If one thought is wrong, like God resorting to rape, then why the related ideas not be? You asked if you should be stoned, and I answered with a yes. I basically just answered with an over-the-top yes. I exaggerated possible truth. If we were to believe that God may just strike us down dead when we run too far away from God then we may disqualify Him from being forgiving. That is why He died for us. Not only would God not rape us, but rather, we have already raped him, I mean, we have already cheated on Him, as did Gomer to prophet Hosea (as seen in the book of Hosea: http://www.teamcrossworld.
Jesus grace over Father justice.
I believe that the Old Testament emphasizes and illustrates God the Father in the color of justice over the waves of grace. God is love. Love is both justice on the left and grace on the right. Since we read left to right, we will first see God's justice. As a Heavenly Father, His children, Israel, were in need of the law. Children must be told what to do. They do not have as much freedom to make decisions. Parents will often tell kids to brush their teeth, clean their room, time for dinner, do this, point blank, right now, in this particular way. As our Father, God told His Nation to not steal, and to clean up their room, so to speak. And God spank His kids, too. Being stoned was an act of love, specifically one of justice. Love cannot exist without justice. Heaven cannot exist without Hell.
The New Testament then made the transition into grace, as Jesus and the Holy Spirit became emphasis in this last part (this New Testament). When I was a child, I thought as a child, but when I became a man, I put away childish things (1 Cor.13:11). The law, specifically in the Old, was mainly set as this school-master: http://biblebrowser.com/ro
The law was mainly there to be that mirror, so that we can see that we need Jesus.
If we are to grow up then we should then be given more mature freedom to make decisions to what we do. As we grow up, we become more in-tuned with the spirit of the law. The mere words to the law was for children, those who are too young to understand the spirit, or as Paul calls it, meat. If the spirit guides you back to certain laws then you should do that. If you are led to follow the law in a certain way then you should do that. I don't mean that we are to just do whatever we emotionally feel like. Rather, I'm saying that it's possible, as we know God's Word, that we will know it, spiritually, when God speaks to us:
Through the good kind of fear: through the spirit: can we be led towards the right direction in what we do, say, think, etc: http://bible.cc/psalms/111
How we are to follow Jesus, depends on, first, how we look at Him, at how we define Love's justice and grace. It really depends on how we see justice and grace together, in how the relate, in how they work together, in how God balances the two, and in how we cannot through our strength.
Emphasize Love's grace over justice!
October 8 at 9:10am
Ronald Gilden
Joey, seriously, now we're raping God? You're starting to offend people. It's probably not your intention to do so, but maybe instead of saying what you don't mean, start only saying what you actually mean. It'd save everyone a lot of useless reading. Besides that, I'm not sure this is the best place to hone your writing skills- you can create a ... Read Morepost on your own site for that.
I don't mind you being involved in this discussion, but I'd like it if you'd be a little more coherent and used less words- as I said, try only saying what you mean. I'm not trying to come down on you buddy, but whether you meant it like that or not, you did more or less imply through your words that God wants to rape my friend. I have to put my foot down somewhere.
I don't mind you being involved in this discussion, but I'd like it if you'd be a little more coherent and used less words- as I said, try only saying what you mean. I'm not trying to come down on you buddy, but whether you meant it like that or not, you did more or less imply through your words that God wants to rape my friend. I have to put my foot down somewhere.
October 8 at 10:25am
Oatmeal Joy
But if I am saying what is hypothetical truth then it is still very much an illustration and therefore very much what I mean within the purpose for which it stands.
October 8 at 11:13am
Ronald Gilden
Alright, to answer Rhonda/Matt's questions...
First of all, God was setting up a judicial system for Israel. 'An eye for an eye/Tooth for a tooth' ruling for example was given so that if someone wrongs you the Sanhedrin or courts would know just how severely they could punish someone who wronged another. That is to say, the wrong that has been done to you is the maximum punishment that could be doled out on the person who wronged you. Does that make sense?
(A side note, Eye/Tooth principle was never considered a physical extraction so much as a monetary one. Regardless of whether or not this is exactly how the Scripture reads, that's how it was acted out. The argument goes something like: if someone breaks your arm and it takes six weeks to heal, how could the offender's arm be broken to the exact same fracture so that it's just as bad, but no worse? Whereas the Sanhedrin could look at the monetary damage done- via loss of work and doctor's fees- and extract that from the offender.)
That being noted, Jesus brought clarity to the Torah- and at times He even made it more stringent. For the at hand example, see Matthew 5:38-42. Jesus didn't just tell us to take our punishment from the court, but for the sake of an evil person, we shouldn't resist and freely give more than we owe them. In fact when it comes to the Torah, Jesus rarely, if ever, loosened it- generally he does quite the opposite.... Read More
God didn't plan on us never sinning when He gave us His Torah. It was given so that we could DEAL with our sin. That's why the sacrificial system was instituted. If God always expected us to be 100% perfect, then why'd He give us a system to deal with our sin?
That said, the commandments about dishonoring your parents, about adultery, breaking Sabbath- those have to do with unrepentant hearts. Using modern language, repeat offenders who don't learn from their mistakes. So as this continues, eventually these people get brought before the court or even the Sanhedrin who exact a sentence upon them, based on a certain minimum number of witnesses who they themselves had to meet certain qualifications- the maximum penalty which is death by stoning. But again, that is the MAXIMUM.
Another thing to remember is that we're not in Israel under their Torah-observant judicial system. Actually, neither is Israel. Nor was Israel back when Jesus was around- which is why they had to appeal the Roman authority to try and kill Him. This, subsequently, is why Paul had to ostracize people in 1 Corinthians 5-6. He didn't have the governmental authority to stone them. There wasn't a full Sanhedrin he could take them before. What I'm trying to get at here, is that those laws were for a judicial system. No one person could rise up and legally stone someone. Paul was working around his lack of a Torah-observant government.
Under the right context though (Israel or an Israel-governed nation that is completely Torah observant, with a Sanhedrin and all the bells and whistles), is death by another means changing Torah? I suppose I would say yes, it is. Stoning was a genius practice, because it was a mass killing a person, so that no one person would have to feel guilty for 'throwing the switch'. However! If someone is wrongly executed, the person (or persons- I'm not in full understanding of this yet) who initiated the stone throwing procession is to have the same sentence dropped (thrown) on his own head.
So justice versus grace... Let's tie this all together with John 8- the woman who is allegedly caught in adultery. Read John 8, then read Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 17:5-7 and 19:15-20 (and for bonus points, Jeremiah 17:13). Then get back to me if it was grace or the Torah that set that woman free.
I honestly was terrified of following the Torah because of these exact concerns- but once you understand the context of these commandments, stuff starts to make way more practical sense. I might note- the less you understand about Torah, the less you understand about the New Testament. And I don't say that in a mean way at all.
First of all, God was setting up a judicial system for Israel. 'An eye for an eye/Tooth for a tooth' ruling for example was given so that if someone wrongs you the Sanhedrin or courts would know just how severely they could punish someone who wronged another. That is to say, the wrong that has been done to you is the maximum punishment that could be doled out on the person who wronged you. Does that make sense?
(A side note, Eye/Tooth principle was never considered a physical extraction so much as a monetary one. Regardless of whether or not this is exactly how the Scripture reads, that's how it was acted out. The argument goes something like: if someone breaks your arm and it takes six weeks to heal, how could the offender's arm be broken to the exact same fracture so that it's just as bad, but no worse? Whereas the Sanhedrin could look at the monetary damage done- via loss of work and doctor's fees- and extract that from the offender.)
That being noted, Jesus brought clarity to the Torah- and at times He even made it more stringent. For the at hand example, see Matthew 5:38-42. Jesus didn't just tell us to take our punishment from the court, but for the sake of an evil person, we shouldn't resist and freely give more than we owe them. In fact when it comes to the Torah, Jesus rarely, if ever, loosened it- generally he does quite the opposite.... Read More
God didn't plan on us never sinning when He gave us His Torah. It was given so that we could DEAL with our sin. That's why the sacrificial system was instituted. If God always expected us to be 100% perfect, then why'd He give us a system to deal with our sin?
That said, the commandments about dishonoring your parents, about adultery, breaking Sabbath- those have to do with unrepentant hearts. Using modern language, repeat offenders who don't learn from their mistakes. So as this continues, eventually these people get brought before the court or even the Sanhedrin who exact a sentence upon them, based on a certain minimum number of witnesses who they themselves had to meet certain qualifications- the maximum penalty which is death by stoning. But again, that is the MAXIMUM.
Another thing to remember is that we're not in Israel under their Torah-observant judicial system. Actually, neither is Israel. Nor was Israel back when Jesus was around- which is why they had to appeal the Roman authority to try and kill Him. This, subsequently, is why Paul had to ostracize people in 1 Corinthians 5-6. He didn't have the governmental authority to stone them. There wasn't a full Sanhedrin he could take them before. What I'm trying to get at here, is that those laws were for a judicial system. No one person could rise up and legally stone someone. Paul was working around his lack of a Torah-observant government.
Under the right context though (Israel or an Israel-governed nation that is completely Torah observant, with a Sanhedrin and all the bells and whistles), is death by another means changing Torah? I suppose I would say yes, it is. Stoning was a genius practice, because it was a mass killing a person, so that no one person would have to feel guilty for 'throwing the switch'. However! If someone is wrongly executed, the person (or persons- I'm not in full understanding of this yet) who initiated the stone throwing procession is to have the same sentence dropped (thrown) on his own head.
So justice versus grace... Let's tie this all together with John 8- the woman who is allegedly caught in adultery. Read John 8, then read Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 17:5-7 and 19:15-20 (and for bonus points, Jeremiah 17:13). Then get back to me if it was grace or the Torah that set that woman free.
I honestly was terrified of following the Torah because of these exact concerns- but once you understand the context of these commandments, stuff starts to make way more practical sense. I might note- the less you understand about Torah, the less you understand about the New Testament. And I don't say that in a mean way at all.
October 8 at 12:06pm
Oatmeal Joy
Jurisdiction was a program. If the Bible was written to us then we would be in that context and therefore wouldn't even need to look at context because we would already understand it.
Deuteronomy (law, again) emphasized justice. But John 8, oh no, that is not directly justice.
If you were to build a house, you would start with the foundation. If... Read More you were doing music, go back to the classical music. If you want to know how to live, you must first understand (following salvation) the Old Testament!
Deuteronomy (law, again) emphasized justice. But John 8, oh no, that is not directly justice.
If you were to build a house, you would start with the foundation. If... Read More you were doing music, go back to the classical music. If you want to know how to live, you must first understand (following salvation) the Old Testament!
October 8 at 12:34pm
Jeff Kurtz
Ronnie,
I have to admit that I may never have time to read all the comments her, but I read your post and a selection of the comments.
Just to sum up what I think you are saying...... Read More
We are to follow the law. We do this as an outward expression of an inward conviction we hold to love and honor God. The law hasn't changed, but we have been redeemed of it's cost. We now follow it out of a desire to express our love and gratitude for the Savior and Creator, not out of fear of death. Is that it?
Btw, I am really appreciative that you took the time to post and comment here about this. Your perspective is great. I think it is an excellent opportunity for each of us to think about what we believe, and how we show love for God.
Great job, and thanks.
Jeff
I have to admit that I may never have time to read all the comments her, but I read your post and a selection of the comments.
Just to sum up what I think you are saying...... Read More
We are to follow the law. We do this as an outward expression of an inward conviction we hold to love and honor God. The law hasn't changed, but we have been redeemed of it's cost. We now follow it out of a desire to express our love and gratitude for the Savior and Creator, not out of fear of death. Is that it?
Btw, I am really appreciative that you took the time to post and comment here about this. Your perspective is great. I think it is an excellent opportunity for each of us to think about what we believe, and how we show love for God.
Great job, and thanks.
Jeff
October 8 at 1:13pm
Ronald Gilden
Jeff, you can't leave this discussion right as you're getting to the meat of it. Bravo by the way- I'm so glad you brought up Galatians and the other points you did.
First, let's clear up some misunderstands...
Rabbi Shaul never changed his name. His Jewish name was Shaul, but when he wrote and spoke with Gentiles he was known as Paul. Similarly, Yeshua (Jesus) was called Iesous when written in Greek. Shimon (Simon) was also called Kefa (Peter). But they didn't change their names (I've heard that Shaul's Jewish name would translate something like 'the haughty walk of prostitutes' which might explain why he wisely went by Paul when addressing Gentiles...).
Acts 23:6 Paul says, 'Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee...' He never stopped being a Pharisee. But you are correct! He didn't belong to the same sect. Pharisees had different beliefs. In fact, Acts 15:5 points out a sect of Pharisees who were 'Christians' (meaning they believed in Yeshua). Pharisees weren't a bad thing. In fact, their beliefs were closer to our beliefs than the rest of Judaism at the time. Not to add fuel to the fire, but I'll even say that Yeshua was a Pharisee.... Read More
As for Galatians and Romans. When you quote about Circumcision, it's imperative to recognize that Paul was speaking about a conversion policy- that is, Jews believed only Jews were saved, therefore you had to convert to Judaism to become saved. This is what Paul was opposing. He essentially was coming down on them for trying to earn salvation through conversion. Were that possible, then Christ died for nothing. In that Romans passage, he's comparing that a righteous Gentile can act like a Jew without converting, but an unrighteous Jew becomes more like a (unsaved) Gentile through his sinful actions. His point in both Galatians and Romans is that if you're earning your salvation by conversion, then you are rejecting Christ, and therefore you are still under the condemnation of the Law.
Can you explain what it means to not be under the Law? If you're 'free' from it, then why are you still keeping some of it? You don't murder, you don't lie (I imagine), you don't endorse or commit adultery, and all the other ten commandments (Ex. 20:1-17). I imagine you don't practice sorcery or bestiality, right (Ex. 22:18-19)? Even by assembling to worship you're still observing part of the Torah. And if you're free from the Torah, why would you love God with all your heart and soul (Deut. 6:5)?
We aren't under the condemnation of the Law. But we are under grace. Meaning that we aren't going to hell because we sin. The wages of sin is death correct? But Jesus already atoned for that, didn't He?
'What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?' (Rom. 6:1-2)
This is the newness! We don't have to fear the condemnation, and we are free from it.
So let me ask, what exactly are you free to do?
Love you friend.
First, let's clear up some misunderstands...
Rabbi Shaul never changed his name. His Jewish name was Shaul, but when he wrote and spoke with Gentiles he was known as Paul. Similarly, Yeshua (Jesus) was called Iesous when written in Greek. Shimon (Simon) was also called Kefa (Peter). But they didn't change their names (I've heard that Shaul's Jewish name would translate something like 'the haughty walk of prostitutes' which might explain why he wisely went by Paul when addressing Gentiles...).
Acts 23:6 Paul says, 'Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee...' He never stopped being a Pharisee. But you are correct! He didn't belong to the same sect. Pharisees had different beliefs. In fact, Acts 15:5 points out a sect of Pharisees who were 'Christians' (meaning they believed in Yeshua). Pharisees weren't a bad thing. In fact, their beliefs were closer to our beliefs than the rest of Judaism at the time. Not to add fuel to the fire, but I'll even say that Yeshua was a Pharisee.... Read More
As for Galatians and Romans. When you quote about Circumcision, it's imperative to recognize that Paul was speaking about a conversion policy- that is, Jews believed only Jews were saved, therefore you had to convert to Judaism to become saved. This is what Paul was opposing. He essentially was coming down on them for trying to earn salvation through conversion. Were that possible, then Christ died for nothing. In that Romans passage, he's comparing that a righteous Gentile can act like a Jew without converting, but an unrighteous Jew becomes more like a (unsaved) Gentile through his sinful actions. His point in both Galatians and Romans is that if you're earning your salvation by conversion, then you are rejecting Christ, and therefore you are still under the condemnation of the Law.
Can you explain what it means to not be under the Law? If you're 'free' from it, then why are you still keeping some of it? You don't murder, you don't lie (I imagine), you don't endorse or commit adultery, and all the other ten commandments (Ex. 20:1-17). I imagine you don't practice sorcery or bestiality, right (Ex. 22:18-19)? Even by assembling to worship you're still observing part of the Torah. And if you're free from the Torah, why would you love God with all your heart and soul (Deut. 6:5)?
We aren't under the condemnation of the Law. But we are under grace. Meaning that we aren't going to hell because we sin. The wages of sin is death correct? But Jesus already atoned for that, didn't He?
'What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?' (Rom. 6:1-2)
This is the newness! We don't have to fear the condemnation, and we are free from it.
So let me ask, what exactly are you free to do?
Love you friend.
October 8 at 1:26pm
Ronald Gilden
Ack, multiple Jeffs!
Jeff K.
Thank you. I would say, more or less, that you nailed it on the head. God told us how to be a holy people, and yet we're all trying to grasp at it like it's some impossible thing. It's only impossible because we don't actually look to where He said 'be holy for I am holy' (Lev. 11:44, 19:2, 20:7, 20:26). How cruel was Peter when he said to his readers to be obedient and holy without explaining exactly what that entails (1 Pet. 1:14-16). We view it as some distant concept that we're all striving for, without realizing it just means to be 'set apart'. And God told us exactly how to do that.
... Read More
But I thank you for your kind comment and for taking time to read the post (don't worry about the comments... most of them are nonsense...).
Much love brother.
Jeff K.
Thank you. I would say, more or less, that you nailed it on the head. God told us how to be a holy people, and yet we're all trying to grasp at it like it's some impossible thing. It's only impossible because we don't actually look to where He said 'be holy for I am holy' (Lev. 11:44, 19:2, 20:7, 20:26). How cruel was Peter when he said to his readers to be obedient and holy without explaining exactly what that entails (1 Pet. 1:14-16). We view it as some distant concept that we're all striving for, without realizing it just means to be 'set apart'. And God told us exactly how to do that.
... Read More
But I thank you for your kind comment and for taking time to read the post (don't worry about the comments... most of them are nonsense...).
Much love brother.
October 8 at 1:38pm
Oatmeal Joy
10 Things I Hate About Commandments: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1kqqMXWEFs . Just kidding. I do not hate the law. Did Paul invent Christianity? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCVpiZo5jAk&NR=1 .
Why keep the Torah: http://www.tallitministries.com/PDF/keepTorah.pdf . Or: http://www.therefinersfire.org/should_gentiles_keep_torah.htm . Follow it in every way, exactly? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FY35YbD3ps . Some laws in the USA can seem just as out of place as those in the Torah: http://bible.org/seriespage/jesus-heals-man-pool-bethesda-john-51-18 .
Jn.5:10: "So the Jews said to the man who was cured, 'It is the Sabbath, and it is not lawful for you to carry your mat?'" But was it still ok for Jesus to heal that cripple or did he break the Sabbath (v.16)? http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john5.htm . http://biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.org/documents/Is%20Jesus%20Breaking%20the%20Sabbath.pdf . http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-texts-john5-18.htm . ... Read More
A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments in Hebrew):
Here is what we must keep: I mean, shouldn't we keep all 613 of these rules or laws? http://www.gospeloutreach.net/613laws.html . http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm .
I was still looking for a video that would talk about how Christians would follow all 613 laws. I am still looking for that. I mean, if we really love God then we should all follow every single one of them, point blank.
Why keep the Torah: http://www.tallitministrie
Jn.5:10: "So the Jews said to the man who was cured, 'It is the Sabbath, and it is not lawful for you to carry your mat?'" But was it still ok for Jesus to heal that cripple or did he break the Sabbath (v.16)? http://www.usccb.org/nab/b
A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments in Hebrew):
Here is what we must keep: I mean, shouldn't we keep all 613 of these rules or laws? http://www.gospeloutreach.
I was still looking for a video that would talk about how Christians would follow all 613 laws. I am still looking for that. I mean, if we really love God then we should all follow every single one of them, point blank.
October 8 at 2:52pm
Jeffrey Walters
ok, so this blog is turning into something i haven't the breath to keep up with.
paul's aramaic, hebrew, chinese, russian, and american name is irrelevant. paul, when calling himself a pharisee in acts he isn't claiming that sect, but rather using his former identity as a tool for reasoning. i won't discuss that further because that too is irrelevant. i just wanted to clarify who paul was, being not a pharisee in his new life but a disciple of christ, not a disciple of another pharisee.
and ron, you are right about conversion. be careful how you refer to my writing though. when i quoted that verse it was to make it clear that if you live under the law you will be judged BY the law. so when paul says we are free from the law, there is now light shed on the issue. you ask about being "free" from the law, and my response is "which law?". by no means am i set apart any more by following the dietary or "clean" laws or even sacrificial ordinances that were practiced thousands of years ago. but i AM set apart by the spirit of god, by following god's commandments, the law, i say, specifically referring to the 10, which are summed up into 2.... Read More
this is why i brought up the different uses of the word law, but you guys toss that around. it makes a big difference on how you use the word. if by law you mean torah, than it is hard to say i am free from it because the commands that jesus taught verbatim are also concealed in those books. you see?
paul's aramaic, hebrew, chinese, russian, and american name is irrelevant. paul, when calling himself a pharisee in acts he isn't claiming that sect, but rather using his former identity as a tool for reasoning. i won't discuss that further because that too is irrelevant. i just wanted to clarify who paul was, being not a pharisee in his new life but a disciple of christ, not a disciple of another pharisee.
and ron, you are right about conversion. be careful how you refer to my writing though. when i quoted that verse it was to make it clear that if you live under the law you will be judged BY the law. so when paul says we are free from the law, there is now light shed on the issue. you ask about being "free" from the law, and my response is "which law?". by no means am i set apart any more by following the dietary or "clean" laws or even sacrificial ordinances that were practiced thousands of years ago. but i AM set apart by the spirit of god, by following god's commandments, the law, i say, specifically referring to the 10, which are summed up into 2.... Read More
this is why i brought up the different uses of the word law, but you guys toss that around. it makes a big difference on how you use the word. if by law you mean torah, than it is hard to say i am free from it because the commands that jesus taught verbatim are also concealed in those books. you see?
October 8 at 7:39pm
Jeffrey Walters
and no i won't fear condemnation, but i will be careful to put the law on a pedestal. you seem to love the commandments, which is great. but dietary benifits should be the reason we uphold the law of old. and by no means would i sacrifice any animal if the temple were rebuilt. our lord has already taken our place. all we have left is our commitment, our lives.
i've noticed that a man (or woman) who is passionate about following the torah is just as hypocritical as i am, if not more. thank god i am not judged by those things.
and this. deception is widespread. i pray it hasn't consumed me. my point is that i see a lot of the books davey shep was reading and even read them, and think "is the world really coming to this?" as in, wow, the last thing the the body needs is more rules. this is my opinion, and i hope my experiences are enough to make you think. some of you might be like "wow, he just dissed on everything i believe" but i only comment on these blogs because it worries me. my heart pounds and i sweat like a pig when i see or hear people preaching this. i hate to see us (as christians) not developing in christ but stagnant, and the world is watching. i also know what it is like to be on the outside and to view the ritualistic and legalistic christian as a fool.... Read More
if i should follow the levitical laws, i have yet to hear a sound argument for why. maybe this is a problem, maybe not. i try to eat clean foods (leviticus says nothing about MSG, haha) and am sure to stay clear of a woman on her period, so tell me something i don't know. i will never sacrifice an animal, and the spirit is by far sufficient in every way. EVERY way. he tells me secrets, like ....
"comment on that there blog..."
i've noticed that a man (or woman) who is passionate about following the torah is just as hypocritical as i am, if not more. thank god i am not judged by those things.
and this. deception is widespread. i pray it hasn't consumed me. my point is that i see a lot of the books davey shep was reading and even read them, and think "is the world really coming to this?" as in, wow, the last thing the the body needs is more rules. this is my opinion, and i hope my experiences are enough to make you think. some of you might be like "wow, he just dissed on everything i believe" but i only comment on these blogs because it worries me. my heart pounds and i sweat like a pig when i see or hear people preaching this. i hate to see us (as christians) not developing in christ but stagnant, and the world is watching. i also know what it is like to be on the outside and to view the ritualistic and legalistic christian as a fool.... Read More
if i should follow the levitical laws, i have yet to hear a sound argument for why. maybe this is a problem, maybe not. i try to eat clean foods (leviticus says nothing about MSG, haha) and am sure to stay clear of a woman on her period, so tell me something i don't know. i will never sacrifice an animal, and the spirit is by far sufficient in every way. EVERY way. he tells me secrets, like ....
"comment on that there blog..."
October 8 at 7:59pm
Oatmeal Joy
1. On one hand, I want to eat healthy. Dietary tips just so happens to be in the Good Book (Old Testament, specifically): especially since "Jesus is in my heart!" So, does Jesus want those extra pounds?
2. But on the other hand, when I read in James about the emphasis in Revolution Hawaii, I mean, in really reaching out, in really loving God ... Read Morethrough loving others (which is the greatest commandment), that just makes me want to go wild, makes me want to scream, makes me want to get out there and be Jesus to the elderly, to the broken, to the children (New Testament's love's grace's party emphasis): moreover!
2. But on the other hand, when I read in James about the emphasis in Revolution Hawaii, I mean, in really reaching out, in really loving God ... Read Morethrough loving others (which is the greatest commandment), that just makes me want to go wild, makes me want to scream, makes me want to get out there and be Jesus to the elderly, to the broken, to the children (New Testament's love's grace's party emphasis): moreover!
October 8 at 9:24pm
Oatmeal Joy
They obeyed parents out of fear, lest they be stoned. It was simpler and to the point. It was point blank. Turn or burn. Do it or else.
But now we honor parents out of faith. Jesus would even say "Blessed are those who have not seen but still do follow."
But even as we keep an Old Testament law "Obey your parents," we do so in different ways, depending on the situation. We do not treat our parents like they are from 800 BC. They are not Jewish. But we still apply it.
But now we honor parents out of faith. Jesus would even say "Blessed are those who have not seen but still do follow."
But even as we keep an Old Testament law "Obey your parents," we do so in different ways, depending on the situation. We do not treat our parents like they are from 800 BC. They are not Jewish. But we still apply it.
October 8 at 9:43pm
Oatmeal Joy
I don't know if God wants me to just follow all 613 laws but God sure didn't want His People to because the Jews are not perfect, they can't keep all those rules because if they did then we wouldn't need Jesus.
October 8 at 10:14pm
Ronald Gilden
Jeff (W),
I understand if you don't have the time to carry on in this conversation. But I do want you to know that I'm absolutely appreciating your participation in it. Regardless of our differing views, you absolutely hold my respect and friendship. I'm not trying to wear you out, I'm just trying to work out my beliefs with you. Iron sharpens iron and all that. Please believe I'm saying none of this out of frustration or anger.
(While I disagree with you about whether Paul was a Pharisee or not, you're correct- it's besides the point. Let's move on...)... Read More
You make a distinction in the Law that is not found in the New Testament. I say 'Torah' because that's what the Apostles were calling the Law- all of it, without distinction. Paul considered the ENTIRE Torah good and holy (Rom. 7:14) and he delighted in it (Rom. 7:22) just as King David did in Psalm 119. My point is this- he didn't throw it away the moment he met Jesus, nor any time after that. That would make Jesus a false prophet and Paul as well.
Is Jesus not the Word that became flesh? Is that same Word not the Word of God which spoke to Moses, giving him the Torah? Moses didn't make up the commandments- God, via Jesus did. So how is it that Jesus would contradict Himself? Is Jesus not the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb. 13:8)? Better yet, why would Jesus establish His precepts and righteous ways only so that He could later come and go through all that death and suffering simply to get rid of the rules He Himself created? Why does it seem like God is at war with Himself by this view?
Before the New Testament had even been fully written (and certainly not circulated), Paul wrote to Timothy telling him, 'you must continue in the things which you have learned and have been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete. thoroughly equipped for every good work.' (2 Tim. 14:17)
What Scripture is it that can instruct us in righteousness? They only had the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings- what we call the Old Testament. And yet most of us disregard it as useless.
Do I put the Torah on a pedestal? Shouldn't God's ways be respected? Am I above Moses' feelings towards God's Torah? (Deut. 4:5-8)? Joshua's (Joshua 1:7-9)? King David's feelings for it (for humor's sake, read all of Psalms 119)? Or what about Paul's absolute love for it (Acts 24:14, 25:8, Rom. 7:12, 7:22, 7:25, 2 Tim. 3:14-17)? I will openly oppose Biblical scholars on this matter any day, but when it comes to the aforementioned people? Who am I to say I know better than them?
Out of curiosity, what is your personal understanding of Matthew 5:17-19? What about when the prophet Isaiah prophesied about Gentile believers keeping Sabbath, sacrificing at the Temple, and the being part of the covenant in a time still to come (Is. 56)? Isaiah prophesied about Jesus dying for us just three chapters prior- so either he's a true prophet of God, or...?
Or what about the prophet Zechariah who said that in a time to come (presumably the Messianic Kingdom age) all nations will have to go to Jerusalem with their offerings for the Feast of Tabernacles, otherwise those nations won't receive rain (Zechariah 14:16-21)?
Not to mention the Feasts the apostles kept (Acts 2:1, 18:21, 20:6, 20:16, 1 Cor. 5:8, 16:8) all of which involved some kind of animal sacrifice. Paul specifically attempted to make a sin offering in Acts 21 (:26-27) upon the completion of his Nazarite vow (Num. 6) before getting attacked by a mob.
I know I'm being heavy handed, but I'm trying to illustrate how much the Bible doesn't permit the dismissal of either the Torah, or the Prophets- or the Old Testament as a whole. Upon Jesus' resurrection, none of the Apostles pulled out their Torah scrolls and threw them into a fire saying, 'Guess we don't need these anymore...'
So what would cause you to do that with your Bible?
I really do hope you continue in this conversation. If you'd rather do it via message, I'd be more than happy to do that just as well. But once more, I completely understand if you haven't the time. You are loved regardless.
I understand if you don't have the time to carry on in this conversation. But I do want you to know that I'm absolutely appreciating your participation in it. Regardless of our differing views, you absolutely hold my respect and friendship. I'm not trying to wear you out, I'm just trying to work out my beliefs with you. Iron sharpens iron and all that. Please believe I'm saying none of this out of frustration or anger.
(While I disagree with you about whether Paul was a Pharisee or not, you're correct- it's besides the point. Let's move on...)... Read More
You make a distinction in the Law that is not found in the New Testament. I say 'Torah' because that's what the Apostles were calling the Law- all of it, without distinction. Paul considered the ENTIRE Torah good and holy (Rom. 7:14) and he delighted in it (Rom. 7:22) just as King David did in Psalm 119. My point is this- he didn't throw it away the moment he met Jesus, nor any time after that. That would make Jesus a false prophet and Paul as well.
Is Jesus not the Word that became flesh? Is that same Word not the Word of God which spoke to Moses, giving him the Torah? Moses didn't make up the commandments- God, via Jesus did. So how is it that Jesus would contradict Himself? Is Jesus not the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb. 13:8)? Better yet, why would Jesus establish His precepts and righteous ways only so that He could later come and go through all that death and suffering simply to get rid of the rules He Himself created? Why does it seem like God is at war with Himself by this view?
Before the New Testament had even been fully written (and certainly not circulated), Paul wrote to Timothy telling him, 'you must continue in the things which you have learned and have been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete. thoroughly equipped for every good work.' (2 Tim. 14:17)
What Scripture is it that can instruct us in righteousness? They only had the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings- what we call the Old Testament. And yet most of us disregard it as useless.
Do I put the Torah on a pedestal? Shouldn't God's ways be respected? Am I above Moses' feelings towards God's Torah? (Deut. 4:5-8)? Joshua's (Joshua 1:7-9)? King David's feelings for it (for humor's sake, read all of Psalms 119)? Or what about Paul's absolute love for it (Acts 24:14, 25:8, Rom. 7:12, 7:22, 7:25, 2 Tim. 3:14-17)? I will openly oppose Biblical scholars on this matter any day, but when it comes to the aforementioned people? Who am I to say I know better than them?
Out of curiosity, what is your personal understanding of Matthew 5:17-19? What about when the prophet Isaiah prophesied about Gentile believers keeping Sabbath, sacrificing at the Temple, and the being part of the covenant in a time still to come (Is. 56)? Isaiah prophesied about Jesus dying for us just three chapters prior- so either he's a true prophet of God, or...?
Or what about the prophet Zechariah who said that in a time to come (presumably the Messianic Kingdom age) all nations will have to go to Jerusalem with their offerings for the Feast of Tabernacles, otherwise those nations won't receive rain (Zechariah 14:16-21)?
Not to mention the Feasts the apostles kept (Acts 2:1, 18:21, 20:6, 20:16, 1 Cor. 5:8, 16:8) all of which involved some kind of animal sacrifice. Paul specifically attempted to make a sin offering in Acts 21 (:26-27) upon the completion of his Nazarite vow (Num. 6) before getting attacked by a mob.
I know I'm being heavy handed, but I'm trying to illustrate how much the Bible doesn't permit the dismissal of either the Torah, or the Prophets- or the Old Testament as a whole. Upon Jesus' resurrection, none of the Apostles pulled out their Torah scrolls and threw them into a fire saying, 'Guess we don't need these anymore...'
So what would cause you to do that with your Bible?
I really do hope you continue in this conversation. If you'd rather do it via message, I'd be more than happy to do that just as well. But once more, I completely understand if you haven't the time. You are loved regardless.
October 9 at 2:07pm
Oatmeal Joy
I did a sermon on 2 Timothy 3:16 once: I discovered that Paul was referring specifically to the Old Testament, since those were all they had: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+3&version=MSG .
Now, I still have to wonder why God didn't give Adam and Eve the law? What was the point of waiting several hundreds of years? Why did ... Read MoreGod have to wait for Abraham? Why couldn't God give Adam His covenant, His promise? Why did God have to wait until Moses was old to give out the law? And better yet, why did God let Israel have kings when God was suppose to be their king? Why did God, through Moses, permit divorce in that law when God hates divorce? Why was there a world flood when the world was going to end up just as evil as before the flood, if not more evil, anyways? Why did Jesus, God's son, have to die for us if they already had the law, they already had burnt offerings, sin offerings, that were to cover up their sins for a year at a time? And why would God let Israel fall 70 AD?
Now, I still have to wonder why God didn't give Adam and Eve the law? What was the point of waiting several hundreds of years? Why did ... Read MoreGod have to wait for Abraham? Why couldn't God give Adam His covenant, His promise? Why did God have to wait until Moses was old to give out the law? And better yet, why did God let Israel have kings when God was suppose to be their king? Why did God, through Moses, permit divorce in that law when God hates divorce? Why was there a world flood when the world was going to end up just as evil as before the flood, if not more evil, anyways? Why did Jesus, God's son, have to die for us if they already had the law, they already had burnt offerings, sin offerings, that were to cover up their sins for a year at a time? And why would God let Israel fall 70 AD?
October 9 at 2:34pm
Oatmeal Joy
Blake, the law should still be applied.
October 9 at 4:22pm
Blake Webb
i shouldn't have posted. booboo snaps.
October 9 at 5:21pm
Oatmeal Joy
But Blake's story worked!
October 9 at 5:35pm
Oatmeal Joy
Beg Blake to post it back.
October 9 at 5:37pm
Jeffrey Walters
i feel as though i've been misunderstood, and this always happens on posts. it even happens in live debates, so maybe i'm not good at this.
first off, i have made it clear in an earlier post that the torah, law, etc, is good and holy. when i mention putting the law on a pedestal, notice how i use it in context of how i feel. i am quick to notice how man can make law god, and not god, god. law has a purpose-to make me conscious of my sin. the more aware i am of my sin, the better my persistence becomes in being holy, or set apart.
now, about these posts. ron, you make valid points, but it seems like your asking me the questions now. i'm not sure if i like that because i don't care about this as much as you do. i will try and answer some, or at least the relevant ones that can maybe change some opinions.... Read More
this matter is and was never about whether the law is good, or even if jesus, paul, or santa clause was under the torah. this is about hebrews 10:18. this is about not being under the law for a million reasons. for me because i am not a jew (1) and (2) because i am under the spirit, which does not lead me to follow the torah. in fact, the spirit seems to lead me to even better dietary methods and even more efficient bodily sacrifices that those ancient ones in leviticus. this is my opinion, and god comforts me in that. i am also comforted to know that since i am not under the law, i am not judged by the law. i am judged according to the spirit. these are scriptural concepts, and they are in turn with life, today, even now...
first off, i have made it clear in an earlier post that the torah, law, etc, is good and holy. when i mention putting the law on a pedestal, notice how i use it in context of how i feel. i am quick to notice how man can make law god, and not god, god. law has a purpose-to make me conscious of my sin. the more aware i am of my sin, the better my persistence becomes in being holy, or set apart.
now, about these posts. ron, you make valid points, but it seems like your asking me the questions now. i'm not sure if i like that because i don't care about this as much as you do. i will try and answer some, or at least the relevant ones that can maybe change some opinions.... Read More
this matter is and was never about whether the law is good, or even if jesus, paul, or santa clause was under the torah. this is about hebrews 10:18. this is about not being under the law for a million reasons. for me because i am not a jew (1) and (2) because i am under the spirit, which does not lead me to follow the torah. in fact, the spirit seems to lead me to even better dietary methods and even more efficient bodily sacrifices that those ancient ones in leviticus. this is my opinion, and god comforts me in that. i am also comforted to know that since i am not under the law, i am not judged by the law. i am judged according to the spirit. these are scriptural concepts, and they are in turn with life, today, even now...
October 9 at 10:21pm
Oatmeal Joy
But pigs are still yucky, Blake.
October 9 at 11:25pm
Jeffrey Walters
another thought.
you mentioned a lot of references, so when i looked up one (zechariah) i was disappointed because you seemed to have missed something. i use the NIV, so maybe i'm missing something. but let's gather the nutrients, eh? in context, we see that in these days Jerusalem, god's city, will be exalted above its' surrounding enemies. more importantly, it says the ones who have attacked her will celebrate the feast of tabernacles. we would be making a bad assumption if we were to assume these enemies were merely there to sacrifice anything simply for the sake of partaking in the ceremony, or holiday. a better analyzation would be that the enemies would be adhering to the god of the universe, thus, it wouldn't matter WHAT they were doing in Jerusalem, it would have to be WHY they were there. they would be there to simply praise him. this series of statements zechariah uses is powerful but symbolic. for instance, he mentions that all who fought jeruselem would rot while standing. we would be foolish to get caught up in descriptions instead of understanding the implication of fighting with god's people.
you refer to old testament prophesy, but for me (not everybody) this is an easy argument, mainly because i can understand how prophets (minor and major) could not fully understand what the day of the lord would be like entirely. their prophecy (which remember, prophecy is sometimes not specific or literal) paints a picture. when you paint a picture, you normally only cover a vague illuminated resemblance of what is actually being conveyed. with prophecy, no prophet could have FULLY understood how god would come as a man and sacrifice himself on a cross, specifically as it happened, then rise again, only to come back gloriously in a 2nd coming (aka the day). in the same way, i don't imagine that any man or woman prior to christ could imagine NOT sacrificing with their hands in order to be holy unto the lord. thank god for clarifying these details, i say, and for reconciling all misunderstanding by making one ultimate sacrifice that would cleanse us for eternity. this was only made possible by a high priest, who's priesthood would never die, and came from the father. this priest, this king, has also prepared for us a place in the most holy of holy places, so we now have DIRECT access to the holy god of all time. this direct access, via his spirit, could never require any ordinances (even his own) or else it wouldn't be direct access. hmm...... Read More
and i admire the law for it's ability to keep a man or woman kosher. that's not to say its necessary, for there is a more necessary and sometimes more difficult road we must now take. i am always quick to question you, again and again, with what this style of living has produced IN you. and also ready for any argument for how, by being under the torah, you have been made any more holy that the person who only listens to what the spirit may have for them. oh, and what about me? would i be making progress to submit to the law and therefor become subject to it?
you mentioned a lot of references, so when i looked up one (zechariah) i was disappointed because you seemed to have missed something. i use the NIV, so maybe i'm missing something. but let's gather the nutrients, eh? in context, we see that in these days Jerusalem, god's city, will be exalted above its' surrounding enemies. more importantly, it says the ones who have attacked her will celebrate the feast of tabernacles. we would be making a bad assumption if we were to assume these enemies were merely there to sacrifice anything simply for the sake of partaking in the ceremony, or holiday. a better analyzation would be that the enemies would be adhering to the god of the universe, thus, it wouldn't matter WHAT they were doing in Jerusalem, it would have to be WHY they were there. they would be there to simply praise him. this series of statements zechariah uses is powerful but symbolic. for instance, he mentions that all who fought jeruselem would rot while standing. we would be foolish to get caught up in descriptions instead of understanding the implication of fighting with god's people.
you refer to old testament prophesy, but for me (not everybody) this is an easy argument, mainly because i can understand how prophets (minor and major) could not fully understand what the day of the lord would be like entirely. their prophecy (which remember, prophecy is sometimes not specific or literal) paints a picture. when you paint a picture, you normally only cover a vague illuminated resemblance of what is actually being conveyed. with prophecy, no prophet could have FULLY understood how god would come as a man and sacrifice himself on a cross, specifically as it happened, then rise again, only to come back gloriously in a 2nd coming (aka the day). in the same way, i don't imagine that any man or woman prior to christ could imagine NOT sacrificing with their hands in order to be holy unto the lord. thank god for clarifying these details, i say, and for reconciling all misunderstanding by making one ultimate sacrifice that would cleanse us for eternity. this was only made possible by a high priest, who's priesthood would never die, and came from the father. this priest, this king, has also prepared for us a place in the most holy of holy places, so we now have DIRECT access to the holy god of all time. this direct access, via his spirit, could never require any ordinances (even his own) or else it wouldn't be direct access. hmm...... Read More
and i admire the law for it's ability to keep a man or woman kosher. that's not to say its necessary, for there is a more necessary and sometimes more difficult road we must now take. i am always quick to question you, again and again, with what this style of living has produced IN you. and also ready for any argument for how, by being under the torah, you have been made any more holy that the person who only listens to what the spirit may have for them. oh, and what about me? would i be making progress to submit to the law and therefor become subject to it?
October 9 at 11:36pm
Jeffrey Walters
i'm not sure what blake posted, but it makes me think what this looks like as a story. bear with me.
meet sammy. growing up in that old fashioned home with lots of chores, sammy kept getting in trouble and could never keep up with all the rules. sammy, we can say, was a little punk, and even a little dumb, but nonetheless his dad was strict on teaching him to be obedient.
then one day sammy and his dad moved.... Read More
thankfully, at this new suburban home, dad decided to strike a new deal with sammy since he was now 12 years old. this age seemed reasonable, having taught sammy all he could with duties and restrictions. the new deal was this: sammy was free to do whatever he wanted, under one condition... love his father, keeping in mind all that he had learned, or else be kicked out. but sammy was stumped, for this new house had all new hallways and a much different backyard. dad had refurnished and there were also new rules to break. this was tricky, but with the spirit shed from his father of freedom he felt a sense of power in order to stay good. so sammy, getting taller and becoming smarter and smarter every day, did what his father asked even though times had changed. his dad, meanwhile, nodded his head and even helped him when he messed up. sammy, you could say, was growing up.
up, up, and away
by jeff walters, haha
meet sammy. growing up in that old fashioned home with lots of chores, sammy kept getting in trouble and could never keep up with all the rules. sammy, we can say, was a little punk, and even a little dumb, but nonetheless his dad was strict on teaching him to be obedient.
then one day sammy and his dad moved.... Read More
thankfully, at this new suburban home, dad decided to strike a new deal with sammy since he was now 12 years old. this age seemed reasonable, having taught sammy all he could with duties and restrictions. the new deal was this: sammy was free to do whatever he wanted, under one condition... love his father, keeping in mind all that he had learned, or else be kicked out. but sammy was stumped, for this new house had all new hallways and a much different backyard. dad had refurnished and there were also new rules to break. this was tricky, but with the spirit shed from his father of freedom he felt a sense of power in order to stay good. so sammy, getting taller and becoming smarter and smarter every day, did what his father asked even though times had changed. his dad, meanwhile, nodded his head and even helped him when he messed up. sammy, you could say, was growing up.
up, up, and away
by jeff walters, haha
October 9 at 11:55pm
Jeffrey Walters
christ by no means contradicted himself. i never once said anything like this, and of course he was a jew and HAD to live the law perfectly because he is the law. otherwise he could not fulfill it. but see, where you leave off is where i pick up. christ died and has freed me from this very law that god established for his people. now, there is no ... Read Moreseparation of jew and greek, for we can all approach god on the same term: grace. this is why paul was never interested in bringing gentiles under the law. why bring someone under it so that they are then judged by it?
you (and those with your same ideology) claim to just be "following rules" and back it with scripture, but the entire bible seems to back the idea that in christ all things are new. this is a NEW covenant, not a reshaped, reverberated, or revamped one. this new covenant is also one that emphasizes a more powerful and more efficient "rule", and that is, sacrifice your life. it is, abide by the spirit, who will counsel you, convict you, and empower you. each decision, in this new life, then becomes a moment by moment commitment instead of a
"oh, let me check to make sure i'm not wearing clothes knit with 2 kinds of material."
you (and those with your same ideology) claim to just be "following rules" and back it with scripture, but the entire bible seems to back the idea that in christ all things are new. this is a NEW covenant, not a reshaped, reverberated, or revamped one. this new covenant is also one that emphasizes a more powerful and more efficient "rule", and that is, sacrifice your life. it is, abide by the spirit, who will counsel you, convict you, and empower you. each decision, in this new life, then becomes a moment by moment commitment instead of a
"oh, let me check to make sure i'm not wearing clothes knit with 2 kinds of material."
October 9 at 11:55pm
Jeffrey Walters
brb, gotta take a shower.
October 9 at 11:55pm
Oatmeal Joy
But you still have to be obedient in faith to follow the law, all of the law, and nothing but the law, or help you God, Jeff.
October 10 at 12:02am
Jeffrey Walters
i'd rather live in canada
October 10 at 12:18am
Oatmeal Joy
But how can we follow all 613... Ronnie?
October 10 at 12:58am
Oatmeal Joy
Ronnie must of deleted my stories!
October 10 at 9:21pm
Oatmeal Joy
Now that is a sin.
October 10 at 9:21pm
October 10 at 9:41pm
Oatmeal Joy
Ignorance!
October 10 at 10:08pm
Ronald Gilden
Jeff (W),
I appreciate your desire to see personal results from following the Torah. What has Torah observance produced in me? Wow. It's honestly something I'm not even sure how to formulate. It's created an incredible love and appreciation for God's Word. And I mean that. I am at peace knowing the Bible's not at war with itself. Knowing that there's not irrelevant books of the Bible that are simply 'just for the Jews'. Instead I can read it knowing that it all flows together consistently, and that it's all for me. So within me, it's given me a feeling of closeness with God because I'm not rejecting His written Word. Peace, in a word.
But outward? What are visible fruits? I believe that God's really clever. I don't believe for a moment He intended His children to hide their faith by simply keeping their mouths shut. So apart from the obvious things like helping people (needy or otherwise), God didn't leave room for people to guess at whether or not we were His. And I mean this physically. People strive for ministry opportunities, some even go as far as to get tattooed so that they can share their faith (I'm not coming down on you by the way for yours, nor am I implying that's why you have some... though I wouldn't mind learning about them sometime). But as I started eating kosher, as I started to keep Sabbath, as I started to wear tzitzit (Num. 15:38-40)- as I started doing all these various things, I realized there was no possible way I could hide my faith. Meals with unbelievers turn into conversations about God. My reason for not being able to work on Saturday turns into a conversation about God. My daily apparel turns into a conversation about God.
People are trying to figure out ministry opportunities, meanwhile God laid out ahead of time how He wanted His children to look- to be set apart for the rest of the world to know that we (us, you and I) belong to God. God didn't want us to blend in, and He didn't want us to conform to the ways of this world. God wanted us to be distinct 24/7, and wearing a 'Jesus' shirt doesn't even come close.... Read More
I don't follow God's commandments because I believe they'll benefit me physically. I don't believe by eating kosher that I'm more healthy than someone else- I do not do it for physical health. And I certainly don't do it simply to be different- I do it because God says to, and God planned on it making His children different. I do it to walk in God's ways. I do it because I love God, and we love God by following His commandments. But you asked if that makes me any more holy than a person who only listens to the Spirit. If God says that by eating kosher it is making us holy as He is holy (Lev. 11:44), who am I to deny what God calls holiness? I thought you already said (which I agree) the Spirit would never lead us away from the Law? If we are following the Spirit, it (He?) would be leading us to following God's commandments. If someone is led away from God's commandments (which we all agree are holy and good), wouldn't that mean that person is rejecting God's holy ways, and therefore holiness?
Following 'the Spirit' led the Catholic church to declare their authority takes precedence over the Bible. This led them deep into pagan practices and idolatry- which still consumes the Catholic church whether they're aware of it or not. Mormonism and Jehovah's Witness are other off-shoots born from following 'the Spirit' (or 'a spirit' if you'd prefer) which led them to place their own writings above God's Word. Rabbinic Judaism has done this in a fashion, as has (oddly enough) Islam. I'm just trying to show what happens when 'the Spirit' leads a person away from the authority established by the Scriptures.
I am not under the Law, nor am I telling others to place themselves under it. But I do (try to) follow it. I am under God- I am under grace. We're subject to God, we belong to Him- we're not our own and we were bought at a price. So I would absolutely tell you to subject yourself to God, and FOLLOW His ways.
I appreciate your desire to see personal results from following the Torah. What has Torah observance produced in me? Wow. It's honestly something I'm not even sure how to formulate. It's created an incredible love and appreciation for God's Word. And I mean that. I am at peace knowing the Bible's not at war with itself. Knowing that there's not irrelevant books of the Bible that are simply 'just for the Jews'. Instead I can read it knowing that it all flows together consistently, and that it's all for me. So within me, it's given me a feeling of closeness with God because I'm not rejecting His written Word. Peace, in a word.
But outward? What are visible fruits? I believe that God's really clever. I don't believe for a moment He intended His children to hide their faith by simply keeping their mouths shut. So apart from the obvious things like helping people (needy or otherwise), God didn't leave room for people to guess at whether or not we were His. And I mean this physically. People strive for ministry opportunities, some even go as far as to get tattooed so that they can share their faith (I'm not coming down on you by the way for yours, nor am I implying that's why you have some... though I wouldn't mind learning about them sometime). But as I started eating kosher, as I started to keep Sabbath, as I started to wear tzitzit (Num. 15:38-40)- as I started doing all these various things, I realized there was no possible way I could hide my faith. Meals with unbelievers turn into conversations about God. My reason for not being able to work on Saturday turns into a conversation about God. My daily apparel turns into a conversation about God.
People are trying to figure out ministry opportunities, meanwhile God laid out ahead of time how He wanted His children to look- to be set apart for the rest of the world to know that we (us, you and I) belong to God. God didn't want us to blend in, and He didn't want us to conform to the ways of this world. God wanted us to be distinct 24/7, and wearing a 'Jesus' shirt doesn't even come close.... Read More
I don't follow God's commandments because I believe they'll benefit me physically. I don't believe by eating kosher that I'm more healthy than someone else- I do not do it for physical health. And I certainly don't do it simply to be different- I do it because God says to, and God planned on it making His children different. I do it to walk in God's ways. I do it because I love God, and we love God by following His commandments. But you asked if that makes me any more holy than a person who only listens to the Spirit. If God says that by eating kosher it is making us holy as He is holy (Lev. 11:44), who am I to deny what God calls holiness? I thought you already said (which I agree) the Spirit would never lead us away from the Law? If we are following the Spirit, it (He?) would be leading us to following God's commandments. If someone is led away from God's commandments (which we all agree are holy and good), wouldn't that mean that person is rejecting God's holy ways, and therefore holiness?
Following 'the Spirit' led the Catholic church to declare their authority takes precedence over the Bible. This led them deep into pagan practices and idolatry- which still consumes the Catholic church whether they're aware of it or not. Mormonism and Jehovah's Witness are other off-shoots born from following 'the Spirit' (or 'a spirit' if you'd prefer) which led them to place their own writings above God's Word. Rabbinic Judaism has done this in a fashion, as has (oddly enough) Islam. I'm just trying to show what happens when 'the Spirit' leads a person away from the authority established by the Scriptures.
I am not under the Law, nor am I telling others to place themselves under it. But I do (try to) follow it. I am under God- I am under grace. We're subject to God, we belong to Him- we're not our own and we were bought at a price. So I would absolutely tell you to subject yourself to God, and FOLLOW His ways.
October 10 at 10:12pm
Ronald Gilden
Oh! I forgot to mention!
The Torah wasn't ever just for the Jews alone. As I pointed out in an earlier comment, it was given to the people God saved from Egypt- both the descendants of Jacob AND the mixed multitude. After God saved them, THEN He gave them His commandments and they became known as 'Israel'. Jethro was a Gentile. Rahab was a Gentile. Ruth was a Gentile. If you believed in God then you became a part of Israel.
'One ordinance shall be for you of the assembly and for the stranger [Hebrew word is 'ger'- pretty much the exact equivalent for 'Gentile believer'] who dwells with you, an ordinance forever throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the stranger [ger] be before the LORD. One law and one custom shall be for you and the stranger [ger] who dwells with you.' (Num. 14:15-16... for further reading, see Ex. 12:49, Lev. 19:18, 19:34, 24:22, Num. 9:14, 15:29, 19:10, 35:15, Deut. 16:14, 24:17-18...)... Read More
Timothy was a Gentile and yet Paul circumcised him. Why would Paul do that to him I wonder?
'Indeed, I Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.' (Gal. 5:2)
Poor Timothy... Paul must have had it out for him.
Humor aside, God intended everyone, once they were saved by grace to keep Torah. This is true throughout the entire Bible. Isaiah prophesied about this.
'Do not let the son of the foreigner [Gentile] who has joined himself to the LORD speak saying, “The LORD has utterly separated me from His people”' and he continues to say 'Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath and holds fast to My covenant- even them I will being to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer... For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.' (Is. 56ish)
By the way, as Jesus noted in Matthew 21, this hasn't happened yet.
Speaking of covenants...
I completely agree with your take on having direct access to the everlasting God. But you're wrong. It did require something. We all sacrificed our Messiah for that benefit. So no- direct access didn't happen without an ordinance.
The problem with the old covenant is with us, the people, not with God and not with His commandments. If Christ died to set us free from the Law that He created, then why did He institute it in the first place? Why would He lay down His own life just to undo something He could have just NOT done in the first place. Did God screw up? And if by dying on the cross Christ did annul the Law, then that makes Him a liar and a false prophet. He already stated that it wasn't going away 'til heaven and earth pass away, and we've already established that it's not just for the Jews, so then why, by Jesus' own words, is it still around? Gentiles already had access to God beforehand.
Finally, why, throughout the entire Torah, did God keep using the words 'lasting ordinance', 'statute forever', 'throughout all your generations', etc..., if He didn't mean it?
The Torah wasn't ever just for the Jews alone. As I pointed out in an earlier comment, it was given to the people God saved from Egypt- both the descendants of Jacob AND the mixed multitude. After God saved them, THEN He gave them His commandments and they became known as 'Israel'. Jethro was a Gentile. Rahab was a Gentile. Ruth was a Gentile. If you believed in God then you became a part of Israel.
'One ordinance shall be for you of the assembly and for the stranger [Hebrew word is 'ger'- pretty much the exact equivalent for 'Gentile believer'] who dwells with you, an ordinance forever throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the stranger [ger] be before the LORD. One law and one custom shall be for you and the stranger [ger] who dwells with you.' (Num. 14:15-16... for further reading, see Ex. 12:49, Lev. 19:18, 19:34, 24:22, Num. 9:14, 15:29, 19:10, 35:15, Deut. 16:14, 24:17-18...)... Read More
Timothy was a Gentile and yet Paul circumcised him. Why would Paul do that to him I wonder?
'Indeed, I Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.' (Gal. 5:2)
Poor Timothy... Paul must have had it out for him.
Humor aside, God intended everyone, once they were saved by grace to keep Torah. This is true throughout the entire Bible. Isaiah prophesied about this.
'Do not let the son of the foreigner [Gentile] who has joined himself to the LORD speak saying, “The LORD has utterly separated me from His people”' and he continues to say 'Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath and holds fast to My covenant- even them I will being to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer... For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.' (Is. 56ish)
By the way, as Jesus noted in Matthew 21, this hasn't happened yet.
Speaking of covenants...
I completely agree with your take on having direct access to the everlasting God. But you're wrong. It did require something. We all sacrificed our Messiah for that benefit. So no- direct access didn't happen without an ordinance.
The problem with the old covenant is with us, the people, not with God and not with His commandments. If Christ died to set us free from the Law that He created, then why did He institute it in the first place? Why would He lay down His own life just to undo something He could have just NOT done in the first place. Did God screw up? And if by dying on the cross Christ did annul the Law, then that makes Him a liar and a false prophet. He already stated that it wasn't going away 'til heaven and earth pass away, and we've already established that it's not just for the Jews, so then why, by Jesus' own words, is it still around? Gentiles already had access to God beforehand.
Finally, why, throughout the entire Torah, did God keep using the words 'lasting ordinance', 'statute forever', 'throughout all your generations', etc..., if He didn't mean it?
October 10 at 10:16pm
Oatmeal Joy
After three years of Bible College, I have been reduced to a status below Jeff, a man incapable of telling a story, a boy who has made this page to be full of nonsense.
Since this is all I got, I really must be a nobody. My talent is in my writings. I am no Michael Jordan. I am no Michael Jackson. I am no Bill Gates. I am no Jesus. I am just ... Read Moreoatmeal. But even that is pure destruction. Never mind how it makes me feel, my whole life, to be described as an alien, just a bog joke. I am just one big offensive terrorist. And if my very best is your garbage.
Then I really need to end me.
Since this is all I got, I really must be a nobody. My talent is in my writings. I am no Michael Jordan. I am no Michael Jackson. I am no Bill Gates. I am no Jesus. I am just ... Read Moreoatmeal. But even that is pure destruction. Never mind how it makes me feel, my whole life, to be described as an alien, just a bog joke. I am just one big offensive terrorist. And if my very best is your garbage.
Then I really need to end me.
October 10 at 10:18pm
Oatmeal Joy
I will repost my story. That story took hours to post and now it is gone. I am so upset. That story was illustartion. You must be closed minded.
October 10 at 10:22pm
Oatmeal Joy
Torah = all 66 books?
October 10 at 10:43pm
Oatmeal Joy
My story = about Jeff's Sammy.
October 10 at 10:44pm
Oatmeal Joy
Bible is for you = to you?
October 10 at 10:46pm
Oatmeal Joy
Ron, but I want to be like you, we have to keep all the rules, whether that be just one, two, ten, 613, or more. We have to make a real website with all the eternal ordinances that we must do so that we can do them!
October 10 at 10:58pm
Rhonda Elmatti
So, Ronnie, if I don't feel as if I'm being "led" to follow the law (not that I'm dishonoring anyone, or killing people, but I think I ate pork last week even though that's not the sorta thing I typically do, and you know I don't keep the sabbath), then I would figure according to you I'm not really being led by the spirit, right?
Cause if I were in fact in tune, I'd be following the law.
And, if in fact I'm not being led by The Spirit, what am I being led by?
So, essentially, it feels like maybe you would be thinking that perhaps what I'm doing & living is actually not good enough. Which makes me wonder with your logic here, where does that put me when time runs out?
... Read More
I think I know that you know that my relationship with the big guy is solid. But your logic doesn't necessarily seem logical.
Cause if I were in fact in tune, I'd be following the law.
And, if in fact I'm not being led by The Spirit, what am I being led by?
So, essentially, it feels like maybe you would be thinking that perhaps what I'm doing & living is actually not good enough. Which makes me wonder with your logic here, where does that put me when time runs out?
... Read More
I think I know that you know that my relationship with the big guy is solid. But your logic doesn't necessarily seem logical.
October 10 at 11:13pm
Oatmeal Joy
Rhonda, now, I believe in progressive sanctification. And you can call me crazy, and I could be wrong about this, but I really do think that you are being led through Jesus............
October 10 at 11:49pm
Oatmeal Joy
Law = mirror. Sin = dirt. Jesus = soap. We = face. The dirt is on our face. We need the mirror to see the dirt on our face. The mirror is useless without soap. Soap is misguided without the mirror. The soap is also like the spirit. You cannot have one without the other.
Ronnie is then right, if we truly love Jesus then we will follow or apply all of the laws and do them out of love!
Jeff, we have to submit in faith and follow all of the rules like Ronnie is saying.
Ronnie is then right, if we truly love Jesus then we will follow or apply all of the laws and do them out of love!
Jeff, we have to submit in faith and follow all of the rules like Ronnie is saying.
October 11 at 12:59am
Ronald Gilden
Rhonda,
I'm not debating your salvation. We're not saved by our actions or good deeds. To be perfectly clear- and I think you already know this- I'm bumping obedience out of love BECAUSE we're saved. We're already good to go. Faith=salvation. Salvation then produces faithfulness. Due to Abraham's faith God declared him righteous (saved), and AFTER that told Abraham to circumcise himself as a sign of his salvation. God saved Israel from Egypt THEN gave them the covenant as a sign of their salvation. Like a wedding ring. If you're not wearing the ring, it doesn't mean you're not married- but wouldn't your Husband want to see you wearing the ring He gave you?
Acts 15 deals with this. The problem in that chapter is 'must the Gentiles convert and keep the Torah to be saved?' - both you and I know the answer to that. The council's resolution? 'Give them these four basic requirements (3 of which are kosher laws- hmm...) so they can have fellowship with us...'... Read More
But how will they learn the rest of the commandments?
'For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.' (Acts 15:21)
In short, they'll figure it out as they go along, because that's what's being preached at their churches. I would imagine most of them didn't feel led to do any of it right away, but as the council agreed, eventually it'll happen. It's a growing process.
Love you.
I'm not debating your salvation. We're not saved by our actions or good deeds. To be perfectly clear- and I think you already know this- I'm bumping obedience out of love BECAUSE we're saved. We're already good to go. Faith=salvation. Salvation then produces faithfulness. Due to Abraham's faith God declared him righteous (saved), and AFTER that told Abraham to circumcise himself as a sign of his salvation. God saved Israel from Egypt THEN gave them the covenant as a sign of their salvation. Like a wedding ring. If you're not wearing the ring, it doesn't mean you're not married- but wouldn't your Husband want to see you wearing the ring He gave you?
Acts 15 deals with this. The problem in that chapter is 'must the Gentiles convert and keep the Torah to be saved?' - both you and I know the answer to that. The council's resolution? 'Give them these four basic requirements (3 of which are kosher laws- hmm...) so they can have fellowship with us...'... Read More
But how will they learn the rest of the commandments?
'For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.' (Acts 15:21)
In short, they'll figure it out as they go along, because that's what's being preached at their churches. I would imagine most of them didn't feel led to do any of it right away, but as the council agreed, eventually it'll happen. It's a growing process.
Love you.
October 11 at 1:23am
Jeffrey Walters
in my last post, i kinda sounded mean, so i'm going to repost, without as much fluff.
- in our case, the spirit is "the bomb, baby"
- the law is more "aw, that's nice"
-the spirit makes us perfect, and IT is now what sets us apart, or what especially distinguishes christians from anybody else, from the world (where the law served this purpose prior to christ.) christ is the fulfillment of that law, and his priesthood lasts forever. so it is by his sacrifice we are made perfect, while the spirit plays the part of the law. weirdly enough, the spirit doesn't lead me to ordinances but instead leads me to moral goodness, a better understanding and prayer life with god, and a desire for more... and more. the truth, the light, is hard to resist. the law was to serve this purpose with christ in mind, for he exemplified it and walked it. the spirit produces what the torah by itself could not. christ, being the embodiment of the law, teaches us that what's important is faith, love, and joy, etc. he teaches that he didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (meaning that the law prophesied his coming, and he is the answer, the source, and the in between).... Read More
hebrews 10:1 "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming-not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship."
- in our case, the spirit is "the bomb, baby"
- the law is more "aw, that's nice"
-the spirit makes us perfect, and IT is now what sets us apart, or what especially distinguishes christians from anybody else, from the world (where the law served this purpose prior to christ.) christ is the fulfillment of that law, and his priesthood lasts forever. so it is by his sacrifice we are made perfect, while the spirit plays the part of the law. weirdly enough, the spirit doesn't lead me to ordinances but instead leads me to moral goodness, a better understanding and prayer life with god, and a desire for more... and more. the truth, the light, is hard to resist. the law was to serve this purpose with christ in mind, for he exemplified it and walked it. the spirit produces what the torah by itself could not. christ, being the embodiment of the law, teaches us that what's important is faith, love, and joy, etc. he teaches that he didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (meaning that the law prophesied his coming, and he is the answer, the source, and the in between).... Read More
hebrews 10:1 "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming-not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship."
October 11 at 1:23am
Ronald Gilden
Joey, how do you have these spurts of coherency and being perfectly lovable?
October 11 at 1:25am
Jeffrey Walters
i believe the law has its specific purpose, is all. that's basically the root of it all. the best way i can explain it is that the spirit is the outcome of the law, and i have that as a gentile. it teaches me what not to eat, and how to act toward god and other people, in a much better way than the law could ever do. you may ask, "well why aren't ... Read Moreyou led to follow torah, if it's good, then?" and my best response is probably "i'll only confuse you, go ask god."
in my eyes and after studying it, it just all adds up to me, even when you show me your scripture references. i stand by the notion that someone's eyes are bad, and i guess in time one of us will learn (supposing we both stay on the path of learning his word).
in my eyes and after studying it, it just all adds up to me, even when you show me your scripture references. i stand by the notion that someone's eyes are bad, and i guess in time one of us will learn (supposing we both stay on the path of learning his word).
October 11 at 1:38am
Ronald Gilden
Jeff,
It is a shadow of the GOOD things to come. Just as the Temple was only a type and shadow of the Heavenly one. But the type and shadow is where Jesus hung out while here on earth. Strange that Christ, with a direct link with God, would even bother with the shadows.
Jesus continually spoke out against men following their own made-up goodness and not the commandments of God. Oddly enough, the Torah also cautions against this...
... Read More
'You shall not at all do as we are doing here today- every man doing whatever is right in his own eyes.' (Deut. 12:8)
On a side note, it's funny that you mention that truth and light are hard to resist... King David called the Torah truth and light as well, and found it very hard to resist.
I've mentioned I love you, right? I didn't mind your unedited post at all.
It is a shadow of the GOOD things to come. Just as the Temple was only a type and shadow of the Heavenly one. But the type and shadow is where Jesus hung out while here on earth. Strange that Christ, with a direct link with God, would even bother with the shadows.
Jesus continually spoke out against men following their own made-up goodness and not the commandments of God. Oddly enough, the Torah also cautions against this...
... Read More
'You shall not at all do as we are doing here today- every man doing whatever is right in his own eyes.' (Deut. 12:8)
On a side note, it's funny that you mention that truth and light are hard to resist... King David called the Torah truth and light as well, and found it very hard to resist.
I've mentioned I love you, right? I didn't mind your unedited post at all.
October 11 at 1:39am
Oatmeal Joy
Ron, always ask before deleting my Jeff Sammy stories, you know that does better than a wife cooking chicken noodle soup, but I guess, since the law didn't tell you so, that you just didn't know any better.
Dear Jeffrey Walters, now......
Or Blake Webb,... Read More
Or Santa Clause,
Or Jesus, or Ronnie,
By the way, is there a difference between doing or following all of the Torah, God's Word, line by line, exactly as it says, point blank........
........with application?
Dear Jeffrey Walters, now......
Or Blake Webb,... Read More
Or Santa Clause,
Or Jesus, or Ronnie,
By the way, is there a difference between doing or following all of the Torah, God's Word, line by line, exactly as it says, point blank........
........with application?
October 11 at 1:45am
Ronald Gilden
Ha, Joey, not only did the Law not tell me to delete it, but neither did the Spirit, so what does that mean?
I honestly don't know how to keep all of Torah. Fortunately every time I read through it, the Spirit gives me a new revelation.
I try to discern what applies to me, not as a king, not as a woman, without the Temple, without a Torah-observant government... essentially I read it trying to figure out what I CAN do. ... Read More... Read More
If you really want to talk more about which commandments I specifically have 'figured out', by all means send me a message and we'll discuss it.
As for a website? What do you think I'm working towards here? (just kidding... I think...)
I honestly don't know how to keep all of Torah. Fortunately every time I read through it, the Spirit gives me a new revelation.
I try to discern what applies to me, not as a king, not as a woman, without the Temple, without a Torah-observant government... essentially I read it trying to figure out what I CAN do. ... Read More... Read More
If you really want to talk more about which commandments I specifically have 'figured out', by all means send me a message and we'll discuss it.
As for a website? What do you think I'm working towards here? (just kidding... I think...)
October 11 at 2:15am
Oatmeal Joy
Specifics = no private matter!
October 11 at 2:31am
Jeffrey Walters
ron, the scripture is specific on how christ was a jew and only through the law could he have fulfilled it. christ wasn't "bothering" with the shadows, or law, he was perfecting it, bringing to fruition the fulfillment of prophecy. and because i am not under the provision of the law doesn't mean i am doing what is right in my own eyes. i am under the supervision of the spirit, who frees me from the written code that has enslaved us up until christ.
the commandments have never stopped existing! they have been fulfilled, brought to life! that spirit is the one that works inwardly, perfecting us, where the law could never do this. if your interpretation of the bible, or more specifically galatians chaps 2, 3, and 4, is different than i explain it thoroughly. we are not justified by observing the law. that's a bold statement, but true because christ's spirit convicts us of the same commandments but on an inward level.... not outward.
romans 7: 6, paul says "but now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the NEW way of the spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."... Read More
christ's death, you can say, took our place, for the law produces death in us for the sake of drawing us to god. this sacrifice on our behalf brings life and allows us to focus on the spiritual goal at which the written law could never achieve for us.
the commandments have never stopped existing! they have been fulfilled, brought to life! that spirit is the one that works inwardly, perfecting us, where the law could never do this. if your interpretation of the bible, or more specifically galatians chaps 2, 3, and 4, is different than i explain it thoroughly. we are not justified by observing the law. that's a bold statement, but true because christ's spirit convicts us of the same commandments but on an inward level.... not outward.
romans 7: 6, paul says "but now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the NEW way of the spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."... Read More
christ's death, you can say, took our place, for the law produces death in us for the sake of drawing us to god. this sacrifice on our behalf brings life and allows us to focus on the spiritual goal at which the written law could never achieve for us.
October 11 at 2:05pm
Jeffrey Walters
oh, and i love you too ron, but of course in a manly, holy kind of way.
October 11 at 2:07pm
Oatmeal Joy
Ronnie, your pledge to the spirit contradicts with your direct interpretation to God's Word. Why do you need spiritual guidance when you can have God's Word? Ronnie, if you believe in following the Torah then why would you need the spirit? The Torah is black and white. It was written to you. You can read it. And you can do it. End of discussion. ... Read MoreYou do not need the spirit because the Bible is simple. I am actually very confused. I am pretty sure that you were against the spirit earlier in this discussion. But now you are for it. You sound like a politician. You should try picking sides.
October 11 at 10:51pm
Oatmeal Joy
Jeff, oh, and by the way, yes, I wish I could love you and Ronnie and all y'all right back, but I am just too pure evil to do that, so, no oatmeal, no sugar, no love, no soup for you, just pure evil Joey for you, evil Barney, evil rage, even through I am working on trying to be nicer to people in life, personally I pray and try, each day, several times a day, literally, and I hate small talk, but, I am trying to love and be nice and understanding but we will see.
Ronnie, and I really would like to follow all the commandments in the Torah but you will first have to tell me how many there are and we got to figure out how to do them, and I am so serious about all of this.
Blake, you know how serious I am about following all the rules! Because if we love God then we will KEEP ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no picking and choosing. We don't have the right or the spirit to do that!!!!!! If God wrote it then He expects us to do it! If we do not do it then we lack faith! I am now a Torah follower!... Read More
BUT DO IT ALL (POINT BLANK)!
Ronnie, and I really would like to follow all the commandments in the Torah but you will first have to tell me how many there are and we got to figure out how to do them, and I am so serious about all of this.
Blake, you know how serious I am about following all the rules! Because if we love God then we will KEEP ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no picking and choosing. We don't have the right or the spirit to do that!!!!!! If God wrote it then He expects us to do it! If we do not do it then we lack faith! I am now a Torah follower!... Read More
BUT DO IT ALL (POINT BLANK)!
October 12 at 1:23am
Oatmeal Joy
Ronnie Gilden's Why I Keep The Torah note was at this following link: http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=146150702946&id=562676138&ref=mf
October 12 at 1:38am
Oatmeal Joy
For if I do not continue then I will lose my salvation (Salvation Army doctrine #9 out of 11)!
October 12 at 2:12am
Ronald Gilden
Jeff, we're so close in our beliefs...
We serve in the newness of the Spirit. We serve because we should want to, not because of the fear of death and excommunication.
Like marriage, 'I want you to WANT to do the dishes!' And as men we're like, 'Why would I ever WANT to do that?'... Read More
But we do the dishes anyway. But not because we want to. We do it begrudgingly. We curse under our breath about doing these stupid dishes. Not because we want to, but because we feel we have to.
But when we do the commandments because we want to? Because we want to please God? That's the newness.
Sin took opportunity through Paul's rigid obedience. Before his encounter with Christ, Paul thought himself goodly and righteous due his obedience to the Law. But he was also prideful of this. I imagine he was swearing under his breath sometimes about it- thus creating sin.
He admits that the Law is perfect and with his inward self he believes this, but his flesh is flawed.
'I thank God- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.' (Rom. 7:25)
Paul realized that if he's observing the Torah because he's bound by the curses, because he's under the condemnation of the Law, then he was doing it for the wrong reason.
Galatians was a whole other issue. Paul and I agree with you- we're not justified (read: saved) by keeping the Law. In Galatians Paul's arguing with a church trying to achieve salvation through conversion to Judaism, therefore nullifying Christ's death. Salvation isn't something we can muster on our own through physical means.
Timothy was a Greek by first century standards, not a Jew. That was my point. If he was a Jew, Paul wouldn't have had to circumcise him so late in life. Paul was battling circumcision (i.e. conversion) as a means of salvation. But circumcision in the correct context is good and holy- because it is obedience to God's Torah. And according to Paul, is there a difference between Jews and Gentile if they believe in Christ?
'Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.' (Deut. 12:32)
We serve in the newness of the Spirit. We serve because we should want to, not because of the fear of death and excommunication.
Like marriage, 'I want you to WANT to do the dishes!' And as men we're like, 'Why would I ever WANT to do that?'... Read More
But we do the dishes anyway. But not because we want to. We do it begrudgingly. We curse under our breath about doing these stupid dishes. Not because we want to, but because we feel we have to.
But when we do the commandments because we want to? Because we want to please God? That's the newness.
Sin took opportunity through Paul's rigid obedience. Before his encounter with Christ, Paul thought himself goodly and righteous due his obedience to the Law. But he was also prideful of this. I imagine he was swearing under his breath sometimes about it- thus creating sin.
He admits that the Law is perfect and with his inward self he believes this, but his flesh is flawed.
'I thank God- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.' (Rom. 7:25)
Paul realized that if he's observing the Torah because he's bound by the curses, because he's under the condemnation of the Law, then he was doing it for the wrong reason.
Galatians was a whole other issue. Paul and I agree with you- we're not justified (read: saved) by keeping the Law. In Galatians Paul's arguing with a church trying to achieve salvation through conversion to Judaism, therefore nullifying Christ's death. Salvation isn't something we can muster on our own through physical means.
Timothy was a Greek by first century standards, not a Jew. That was my point. If he was a Jew, Paul wouldn't have had to circumcise him so late in life. Paul was battling circumcision (i.e. conversion) as a means of salvation. But circumcision in the correct context is good and holy- because it is obedience to God's Torah. And according to Paul, is there a difference between Jews and Gentile if they believe in Christ?
'Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.' (Deut. 12:32)
October 12 at 12:30pm
Ronald Gilden
By the bye, if the Law is only to be acted out spiritually, what are the 'Least' spiritual commandments Jesus was referring to?
October 12 at 12:33pm
Oatmeal Joy
Ronnie, if washing dishes is like following the Torah then why would anybody object?
October 12 at 12:41pm
Jeffrey Walters
i would object, only because the scripture i provide is clear about why the law was given and how we are to view it. the spirit brings to life, the law kills.
and you say "only" to be acted out spiritually, as if your spirit's repentance doesn't produce physical works (james).
ron, your interpretation of romans 7:25 wouldn't justify observing torah, since the first 75 percent of that chapter imply that we serve in a new fashion. we can use the context of paul's teaching to understand his inward battle with his outward results. god's law, in this example, clearly doesn't have to do with observing torah but instead refers to the law that flows out from the mind, or we can say heart, or soul. jesus coined this form of interpreting law (from the inside out).... Read More
i would also like to add that, when i love god, it isn't by following the torah, it is by repenting of the sin which the SPIRIT has convicted me of. these sins (gal 5:19) are not sins that i have made up. they are essentially the same sins that have been around since the beginning, even before the law.
and you say "only" to be acted out spiritually, as if your spirit's repentance doesn't produce physical works (james).
ron, your interpretation of romans 7:25 wouldn't justify observing torah, since the first 75 percent of that chapter imply that we serve in a new fashion. we can use the context of paul's teaching to understand his inward battle with his outward results. god's law, in this example, clearly doesn't have to do with observing torah but instead refers to the law that flows out from the mind, or we can say heart, or soul. jesus coined this form of interpreting law (from the inside out).... Read More
i would also like to add that, when i love god, it isn't by following the torah, it is by repenting of the sin which the SPIRIT has convicted me of. these sins (gal 5:19) are not sins that i have made up. they are essentially the same sins that have been around since the beginning, even before the law.
October 12 at 5:48pm
Oatmeal Joy
Law = training wheels! Spirit = bike!
October 12 at 6:16pm
Ronald Gilden
Jeff, come on man, I thought you read my note...
Jesus didn't coin this form of interpreting the law in the first century... John realized this when he wrote to the female pastor (presumably) of a church,
2 John 1:5-6
... Read More
'And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.'
Jesus coined this interpretation when He gave Moses the Torah.
And again, 'if you still don't buy into this idea, please read, Ex. 25:2, 35:5, 35:21-22; Lev. 19:18; Deut. 4:29, 6:5-6, 10:12-13, 11:1, 26:16-19, 30:6, 30:15-16, 30:19-20- actually, just read all of Deuteronomy 30 - John 14:15, 14:21, 14:23-24, 15:10, Rom. 13:9, 1 John 2:3-6, 5:2-4, and 2 John 1:5-6.'
I don't list those Scriptures for flavor text- I'm trying to get a point across.
Jesus didn't coin this form of interpreting the law in the first century... John realized this when he wrote to the female pastor (presumably) of a church,
2 John 1:5-6
... Read More
'And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.'
Jesus coined this interpretation when He gave Moses the Torah.
And again, 'if you still don't buy into this idea, please read, Ex. 25:2, 35:5, 35:21-22; Lev. 19:18; Deut. 4:29, 6:5-6, 10:12-13, 11:1, 26:16-19, 30:6, 30:15-16, 30:19-20- actually, just read all of Deuteronomy 30 - John 14:15, 14:21, 14:23-24, 15:10, Rom. 13:9, 1 John 2:3-6, 5:2-4, and 2 John 1:5-6.'
I don't list those Scriptures for flavor text- I'm trying to get a point across.
October 12 at 6:26pm
Oatmeal Joy
Ronnie Gilden does not have to tell Jeffrey Walters to keep the law! Ronnie Gilden needs to tell Jeffrey Walters how to keep every single law in the Torah! Ronnie Gilden needs to simply list all the commandments so that Jeffrey Walters can see that we can actually do all the commandments!
October 12 at 6:43pm
Rhonda Elmatti
Since I've contributed to this conversation I figured it only right that I make clear the way I see things. I know my couple of statements, questions, whatever may have made it seem as if I completely disagree with Ronnie, but the truth is I don't. I'm fairly close to agreeing with him entirely.
Anyways, so, here's what I've decided I believe at the moment...
I know there's only one way to God and that's through Jesus. So, then is the recognition of law necessary to enter into the kingdom of heaven? Yes and no. As a child of God, a relationship with him and an understanding of his will is going to at least lead you into the basics of abiding the law. So technically yes cause really if you're without the law then you aren't really pursuing God's path cause the law is essentially the foundational blue prints for relating to God. BUT Will I burn in hell if I don't make a concious decision to follow the law as the Jews would? Nope. When Christians speak of being "free from the law" I think they're technically right, they are free. They aren't bound to it, if they break it their isn't a list of punishments someone is gonna check and it isn't determining our eternal fate.... Read More
The lawlessness in Matthew 7 is real, obviously, but that's not me. Those people exist, pretty sure I know at least a few, the one's who say "Lord, Lord" but won't enter. Which brings me to the idea that the law post-Jesus, still relevant, works essentially like a point system. In the scripture saying there's a "least" and then the above mentioned "lawlessness", I'm then led to figure that somebody up there is surely keeping track of these things. And if someone's keeping track, let it be on record I won't be found in last place.
The way I figure things go is sorta like this, accepting Jesus as the son of God and our personal saviour is the only possible way to earn a ticket to heaven, and once a person makes that initial leap into salvation it's like they get a scorecard with their name on it in heaven. Then it's all a little up in the air. So there's a least, does that mean there's a A Little Better Than Least, A Great, and an Awesome team too? Pfft, who knows, but there's a least. The point is to avoid the Least category. And if that means never doing this that or the other thing, great.
So, essentially under my way of thinking, there's no direct punishment under the law, simply reward. (I REALLY hope you understand that statement, you don't have to agree but it'd be awesome if you didn't get confused by it) Cause the law isn't going to get me to heaven or not get me to heaven. For instance, Pete (my husband) eats pork. If he chooses to continue to do so, he won't necessarily be punished, he won't not go to heaven. But, will he be less holy? Possibly. Will he be potentially missing out on something better? Probably. But he'll still be just as much a child of God and just as able to be used by God. God will still talk to him, love him, use him, and accept him as his.
I think when the disciples where bugging Jesus asking who'd be where and who's the favorite they were completely aware of the possibility of this scorekeeping system God's got on us.
If anyone feels the need to comment on this, or ask questions, you're welcome to. BUT I can't guarantee I'm up for debating anything I just wanted to be fair and clearly-ish state my stance.
Anyways, so, here's what I've decided I believe at the moment...
I know there's only one way to God and that's through Jesus. So, then is the recognition of law necessary to enter into the kingdom of heaven? Yes and no. As a child of God, a relationship with him and an understanding of his will is going to at least lead you into the basics of abiding the law. So technically yes cause really if you're without the law then you aren't really pursuing God's path cause the law is essentially the foundational blue prints for relating to God. BUT Will I burn in hell if I don't make a concious decision to follow the law as the Jews would? Nope. When Christians speak of being "free from the law" I think they're technically right, they are free. They aren't bound to it, if they break it their isn't a list of punishments someone is gonna check and it isn't determining our eternal fate.... Read More
The lawlessness in Matthew 7 is real, obviously, but that's not me. Those people exist, pretty sure I know at least a few, the one's who say "Lord, Lord" but won't enter. Which brings me to the idea that the law post-Jesus, still relevant, works essentially like a point system. In the scripture saying there's a "least" and then the above mentioned "lawlessness", I'm then led to figure that somebody up there is surely keeping track of these things. And if someone's keeping track, let it be on record I won't be found in last place.
The way I figure things go is sorta like this, accepting Jesus as the son of God and our personal saviour is the only possible way to earn a ticket to heaven, and once a person makes that initial leap into salvation it's like they get a scorecard with their name on it in heaven. Then it's all a little up in the air. So there's a least, does that mean there's a A Little Better Than Least, A Great, and an Awesome team too? Pfft, who knows, but there's a least. The point is to avoid the Least category. And if that means never doing this that or the other thing, great.
So, essentially under my way of thinking, there's no direct punishment under the law, simply reward. (I REALLY hope you understand that statement, you don't have to agree but it'd be awesome if you didn't get confused by it) Cause the law isn't going to get me to heaven or not get me to heaven. For instance, Pete (my husband) eats pork. If he chooses to continue to do so, he won't necessarily be punished, he won't not go to heaven. But, will he be less holy? Possibly. Will he be potentially missing out on something better? Probably. But he'll still be just as much a child of God and just as able to be used by God. God will still talk to him, love him, use him, and accept him as his.
I think when the disciples where bugging Jesus asking who'd be where and who's the favorite they were completely aware of the possibility of this scorekeeping system God's got on us.
If anyone feels the need to comment on this, or ask questions, you're welcome to. BUT I can't guarantee I'm up for debating anything I just wanted to be fair and clearly-ish state my stance.
October 12 at 7:25pm
Oatmeal Joy
Chastisement = God's children are disciplined, purged, spanked! Follow each of the laws!
Ronnie Gilden believes in a completely literal Torah! This interpretation leaves no room for speculation! Follow all of the laws because the Torah was written to you, that is why the Torah is there, and that is why Jesus always did!
Ronnie Gilden believes in a completely literal Torah! This interpretation leaves no room for speculation! Follow all of the laws because the Torah was written to you, that is why the Torah is there, and that is why Jesus always did!
October 12 at 7:36pm
Ronald Gilden
Joey... when did you become my spokesperson?
October 12 at 7:54pm
Ronald Gilden
Rhonda, you're completely amusing, and thank you.
October 12 at 7:55pm
Rhonda Elmatti
Any time.
October 12 at 7:58pm
Rhonda Elmatti
Just realized I never mentioned that I loved this...
"Like a wedding ring. If you're not wearing the ring, it doesn't mean you're not married- but wouldn't your Husband want to see you wearing the ring He gave you?"
"Like a wedding ring. If you're not wearing the ring, it doesn't mean you're not married- but wouldn't your Husband want to see you wearing the ring He gave you?"
October 12 at 8:18pm
Oatmeal Joy
Ronald Gilden needs promotion!
October 12 at 8:20pm
Oatmeal Joy
Jeffrey Walters is in direct contradiction with Ronald Gilden! Ronald Gilden thinks it is close! Jeffrey Walters, however, knows that they are both on different planets!
October 12 at 10:22pm
Jeffrey Walters
ron, all due respect, i do read everything you post, even the references. i even read before and after. you gotta love this stuff, although, for some, this kind of debate is deathly. but ya, i haven't missed your point, but rather, i just disagree. fundamentally, i do. i don't disagree out of stubbornness, i just don't see what you are seeing. ... Read Moresometimes i barely can see what protestants see! when i match up your references to mine, i see a full movie, one that runs immaculately and was probably produced by speilberg cuz it has a start AND a finish. the movie doesn't skip around, or confuse the audience.
i like rhonda's points too. some of the ideas are strange to me, but i enjoy the bulk of your post. we know that it is faith in christ and repentance that wins us the ticket. some just think that the theatre looks a lot different on the inside than it did on the outside. some people, apparently, once inside, don't even see the same movie.
i like rhonda's points too. some of the ideas are strange to me, but i enjoy the bulk of your post. we know that it is faith in christ and repentance that wins us the ticket. some just think that the theatre looks a lot different on the inside than it did on the outside. some people, apparently, once inside, don't even see the same movie.
October 12 at 11:06pm
Rhonda Elmatti
Jeff,
M. Night Shyamalan here. Boring beginning, exciting middle, oh HA! Tricked you! It's really still about the beginning, end.
All joking aside, I was just asleep 10 minutes ago.
M. Night Shyamalan here. Boring beginning, exciting middle, oh HA! Tricked you! It's really still about the beginning, end.
All joking aside, I was just asleep 10 minutes ago.
October 12 at 11:55pm
Oatmeal Joy
Jeffrey Walters is clearly in a different theater all together! Ronnie Gilden is not even in the same city.
October 13 at 11:31am
Oatmeal Joy
Sadly enough, those two different theaters, those two different cities with different insides and different beginnings and ends in the plays, those two cannot coexist at the same time!
October 13 at 11:32am
Oatmeal Joy
RONNIE GILDEN
WHERE THE TORAH MEANS YOU
WHERE EVERY LAW IS DONE
WHERE WE KEEP THE TORAH... Read More
WHERE CHRISTIANS DIE
WHERE JEWS ABOUND
WHERE WE ALL DANCE
Ronnie Gilden is going to write the following list so that we can keep the Torah, because we all need to be Jews, we all need to keep every single commandment out of love!
HOW TO KEEP TORAH
BY RONNIE GILDEN
Which becomes a New York Best-Time Seller, but this book is not to be confused with his other books, "Why I keep the Torah," and "What is the Torah," "Why Jeffrey Walters is Wrong," "Whatever Happen to Janet Bailey," and "The Superman We Wish We Never Knew!"
WHERE THE TORAH MEANS YOU
WHERE EVERY LAW IS DONE
WHERE WE KEEP THE TORAH... Read More
WHERE CHRISTIANS DIE
WHERE JEWS ABOUND
WHERE WE ALL DANCE
Ronnie Gilden is going to write the following list so that we can keep the Torah, because we all need to be Jews, we all need to keep every single commandment out of love!
HOW TO KEEP TORAH
BY RONNIE GILDEN
Which becomes a New York Best-Time Seller, but this book is not to be confused with his other books, "Why I keep the Torah," and "What is the Torah," "Why Jeffrey Walters is Wrong," "Whatever Happen to Janet Bailey," and "The Superman We Wish We Never Knew!"
October 14 at 9:22pm
Oatmeal Joy
Torah Master!
October 17 at 1:11pm
Janet Bailey
I can tell with all honesty when I obey, I feel closer and when I don't their are times I have felt hoplessly lost. I think the biggest thing as believeres that we can ask ourselves, is if God came to you and told you to do this... would you be willing? I'm not saying I hold the answer to what is right and what is wrong. I'm just saying you have to... Read More be willing to seek the truth to find it. Our minds are flawed because we are in the world. The answers aren't always in our head but have to be sought out. If you can do something to feel/be closer to God...... why not? Why wouldn't you possibly want to? This is a question that I have dwelled on alot. Alot of the time I find I do things for man or because of man.................. Needless to say where as a result I have felt no reward and completely lost and burdened. But when I do something out of Love for God........... My spirit is lifted and far from dwendelling. Simple and amazing.
October 19 at 5:29pm
Oatmeal Joy
We must follow all the rules!
October 19 at 5:45pm
Janet Bailey
Joey, I don't understand if you are joking or not? Poking fun or being serious? What rules where? ARe you trying to be extreme or make a statement?
October 19 at 5:52pm
Blake Webb
hahaha
October 20 at 6:26pm
Oatmeal Joy
Spike, but Ronnie must!
October 20 at 9:37pm
Spike Arndt
I dont recall ever saying he didnt have to. Simply stating on Janet's wall that you seemed to be mocking ronnies beliefs. you have since corrected this. The reason why it is confusing to others as well, (see janets post above) is that you repeat the same line over and over again. No one is sure if you are sincere or lashing out.
October 21 at 12:29am
Jeffrey Walters
this website seems to nail some of the more important scriptures, so i thought i would post.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=588
janet: i would never harp on someone obeying levitical ordinances out of love for god, but i would definately question their knowledge of his word, and what that obediance has internally produced in them.
http://www.blueletterbible
janet: i would never harp on someone obeying levitical ordinances out of love for god, but i would definately question their knowledge of his word, and what that obediance has internally produced in them.
October 21 at 10:27am
Oatmeal Joy
Spike, I seriously want to know what God wants us to do. That is the bottom line. I am totally sincere when I say that I want to keep all God's commandments! If we love Him then we will keep His commandments, every single one of them. My only problem is that I do not know what all those commandments are. I need a list of all the rule! More over, I really need help with actually keeping all the rules! I really want to know how to keep all the laws!
October 21 at 1:49pm
Spike Arndt
Joey, so there is no confusion, what follows is not for you. Everyone else though.....
It is the nature of man to make excuses for his failings and justify his lack of willingness in regards to God's law. I see this written a lot in going back up through a lot of these posts. More recent posts claim they would question their knowledge of (his) word, and what that obedience has internally produced in them. This in itself is questionable in the fact that one should not claim in word or deed to be more knowledgeable in any regard to Jesus or the disciples.
Romans 12:3 (New International Version) reminds us;
“3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.” To claim your knowledge and understanding far exceeds the knowledge of another fills one with a haughty spirit, which can lead to pride.... Read More
Any man who chooses to follow the commandments as stated in the Torah does so with a righteous heart, believing what he does is his calling through his study in God’s word.
“23Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men.” Colossians 3:23 (NIV) tells us that following these commandments is done so through our own faith and belief in God’s word, not for the approval of disapproving men or woman.
Going back to Romans 12:3, it is by the measure of faith that God has given a man for him to look at himself and determine within his beliefs whether he does right or wrong by the Lord. The Holy Spirit will surely step in and correct any missteps with conviction.
All in all, I found it heart-wrenching to sit idly by while one claims to know more than another when the bible is clear that it is through faith that such determinations is made. The bible is not a text book that can be quoted or misquoted from memory and used to suit the purposes of the individual, but a living, breathing creation of God that when perused daily constantly alters the flow of information received by all. Studying the word beyond memorization leads to the stronger faith, and ergo, allows the scriptures to dwell within one’s own heart.
It is the nature of man to make excuses for his failings and justify his lack of willingness in regards to God's law. I see this written a lot in going back up through a lot of these posts. More recent posts claim they would question their knowledge of (his) word, and what that obedience has internally produced in them. This in itself is questionable in the fact that one should not claim in word or deed to be more knowledgeable in any regard to Jesus or the disciples.
Romans 12:3 (New International Version) reminds us;
“3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.” To claim your knowledge and understanding far exceeds the knowledge of another fills one with a haughty spirit, which can lead to pride.... Read More
Any man who chooses to follow the commandments as stated in the Torah does so with a righteous heart, believing what he does is his calling through his study in God’s word.
“23Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men.” Colossians 3:23 (NIV) tells us that following these commandments is done so through our own faith and belief in God’s word, not for the approval of disapproving men or woman.
Going back to Romans 12:3, it is by the measure of faith that God has given a man for him to look at himself and determine within his beliefs whether he does right or wrong by the Lord. The Holy Spirit will surely step in and correct any missteps with conviction.
All in all, I found it heart-wrenching to sit idly by while one claims to know more than another when the bible is clear that it is through faith that such determinations is made. The bible is not a text book that can be quoted or misquoted from memory and used to suit the purposes of the individual, but a living, breathing creation of God that when perused daily constantly alters the flow of information received by all. Studying the word beyond memorization leads to the stronger faith, and ergo, allows the scriptures to dwell within one’s own heart.
October 21 at 5:47pm
Spike Arndt
let the defensive statements and declarative observations abound.....
October 21 at 6:00pm
Oatmeal Joy
Spike, if you don't tell us what to do then what are we going to do.
Ronnie, you should not just tell people to do what is better. You have to show people that you can do what is better. Everybody knows that they are to keep God's commandments.
What makes me very angry is that you guys spend so much time trying to win this argument through the authority of scriptures which is good. But we are missing the point. Of course, we are to keep all the commandments. But what are those commandments. That is the issue. All I hear is "Hey, guess what, we should keep the law!" For crying out loud, of course we are to keep whatever that we are suppose to keep. It is so nice that we get to talk about this. Hey, guess what, you have to clean up your room. Hey little girl, you have to go wash the dishes/ Hey little boy, you must clean up the yard. Hey people, we must do everything that God wants us to do out of love! Of course! But how do we do that? I'm going to say this again and again that we know that we must do good. I mean, new Christians or some people may not know this but I at least do. But the emphasis must be on the how for right now! How are we to exactly clean our rooms? How are we to wash the dishes? Oh, excuse me, those are parables. I mean, how are we to keep the law? What are the laws. And then, let's do them. Let's make videos that will show the world that we are keeping all the laws, every single one of them. That is the real problem.... Read More
I want to know how!
Ronnie, you should not just tell people to do what is better. You have to show people that you can do what is better. Everybody knows that they are to keep God's commandments.
What makes me very angry is that you guys spend so much time trying to win this argument through the authority of scriptures which is good. But we are missing the point. Of course, we are to keep all the commandments. But what are those commandments. That is the issue. All I hear is "Hey, guess what, we should keep the law!" For crying out loud, of course we are to keep whatever that we are suppose to keep. It is so nice that we get to talk about this. Hey, guess what, you have to clean up your room. Hey little girl, you have to go wash the dishes/ Hey little boy, you must clean up the yard. Hey people, we must do everything that God wants us to do out of love! Of course! But how do we do that? I'm going to say this again and again that we know that we must do good. I mean, new Christians or some people may not know this but I at least do. But the emphasis must be on the how for right now! How are we to exactly clean our rooms? How are we to wash the dishes? Oh, excuse me, those are parables. I mean, how are we to keep the law? What are the laws. And then, let's do them. Let's make videos that will show the world that we are keeping all the laws, every single one of them. That is the real problem.... Read More
I want to know how!
October 21 at 6:09pm
Oatmeal Joy
Spike, Ronnie, Gildens, Shepherds, you're missing the point! We don't need to know that we should! We need to know how!
October 21 at 6:45pm
Madison Bowers
Spike,
I wholeheartedly agree with what you said. I'm very grateful you posted that, I think it needs to be heard and understood. Not only that, but out of context it was a nice reassurance and reminder to me.
I could talk to you forever about how much - in this flurry of comments and point makings - your statements meant. It sets this conversation the way it should be, in my opinion.... Read More
And Ronnie,
I know I've been late posting on this. Through outside conversations about it I didn't feel I had a need, but since I'm already here -
You're an amazing influence on me and I completely appreciate your writings. My walk with Torah may at times be different, but I feel our hearts are in the same place. Thank you for posting this. I'm quite certain you've made an impact through it.
- Madison
I wholeheartedly agree with what you said. I'm very grateful you posted that, I think it needs to be heard and understood. Not only that, but out of context it was a nice reassurance and reminder to me.
I could talk to you forever about how much - in this flurry of comments and point makings - your statements meant. It sets this conversation the way it should be, in my opinion.... Read More
And Ronnie,
I know I've been late posting on this. Through outside conversations about it I didn't feel I had a need, but since I'm already here -
You're an amazing influence on me and I completely appreciate your writings. My walk with Torah may at times be different, but I feel our hearts are in the same place. Thank you for posting this. I'm quite certain you've made an impact through it.
- Madison
October 21 at 7:20pm
Oatmeal Joy
Spike Arndt said that we should follow the Torah. Ronnie Gilden said that we should follow the Torah. I (Oatmeal Joey Arnold) do say that we should follow the Torah. Jeffrey Walters says that we should follow the Torah. Madison Bowers says that we should follow the Torah. Blake Webb says we should follow the Torah. My sisters (Katie & Crystal Ball) says we should follow our heart. Many people say that we should follow the Torah. But that is not the problem.........
October 21 at 10:52pm
Jeffrey Walters
spike
i'm guessing you were referring to me, when you spoke of haughtiness, claimed that i thought i was more intelligent than the disciples, etc.
anyhoot.... Read More
am i not allowed to question your theology? shouldn't we be concerned with what is developing internally? like i've said, if a man cannot resist but to follow god's torah, every levitical commandment, i question them... on the basis that the entire fulfillment of christ and all the scripture i've provided makes my arguments very clear.
i'm guessing you were referring to me, when you spoke of haughtiness, claimed that i thought i was more intelligent than the disciples, etc.
anyhoot.... Read More
am i not allowed to question your theology? shouldn't we be concerned with what is developing internally? like i've said, if a man cannot resist but to follow god's torah, every levitical commandment, i question them... on the basis that the entire fulfillment of christ and all the scripture i've provided makes my arguments very clear.
October 21 at 10:57pm
Oatmeal Joy
Proof Jeffrey Walters wrong! Guys, I know you can proof Jeff wrong! I dare you guys! I should bet on you guys! How much money should I throw out there. There is counter-argument! All you have to do is do what you say you do. If you keep the Torah then show us what that looks like. I do not know what it means. If you want to win the argument then ... Read Moreyou have to do what you say you do. If you really are keeping the Torah then let's get a camcorder! Let's make a documentary about it! If you can show us how to keep the Torah then I will personally persuade Jeff into the Torah! I know that I can. I am Joey Arnold and I can do anything (except for keeping the Torah because I am not sure how to do that). It is too bad that my posts are always ignored. I was telling Blake how upsetting that is to be described as a man full of nonsense. I am always missing the point. But still, if you guys can show us how to keep the law. Then you guys will definitely not be missing the point! If the Bible is written directly to us then we are to do it. But we have to know how!
October 21 at 11:11pm
Oatmeal Joy
Spike's impact wasn't pivotal.
October 21 at 11:19pm
Spike Arndt
To question man is a must, it is the nature we are created into. To question God on what he has placed upon a man's heart, there is where the line is drawn. That is the point of my previous statement. You even just stated that they are YOUR arguments, based on your understanding of the bible that you have read. God has placed them on your heart ... Read Moreaccording to your faith in his word.
Ronnie has had his beliefs placed on his heart based on the his faith in God's word.
It is a living, breathing entity, the bible, and speaks differently to all. The message is the same, but we all understand the words differently...take their meaning at opposing angles based on how we interpret them.
Let me also say that i was not condemning you or your understanding on the Bible, just using the example to make an overall point.
I understand the argument you have made, but as you have said, they are YOUR arguments. Ronnie has made his, and i have added mine. Spending so much overall time arguing with one another on the basis of scripture detracts from the overall goal we are sent here to perform. Do we not all believe that Jesus was the Christ, and therefore we are saved if we believe he is the only way to the Father? If we can all meet on this in agreement, then let our focus be on the souls unsaved and their salvation rather than the in's and out's of who is right and who is wrong according to man.
Ronnie has had his beliefs placed on his heart based on the his faith in God's word.
It is a living, breathing entity, the bible, and speaks differently to all. The message is the same, but we all understand the words differently...take their meaning at opposing angles based on how we interpret them.
Let me also say that i was not condemning you or your understanding on the Bible, just using the example to make an overall point.
I understand the argument you have made, but as you have said, they are YOUR arguments. Ronnie has made his, and i have added mine. Spending so much overall time arguing with one another on the basis of scripture detracts from the overall goal we are sent here to perform. Do we not all believe that Jesus was the Christ, and therefore we are saved if we believe he is the only way to the Father? If we can all meet on this in agreement, then let our focus be on the souls unsaved and their salvation rather than the in's and out's of who is right and who is wrong according to man.
October 22 at 12:16am
Spike Arndt
Is our focus to change the minds of the saved, or to save the souls of the minds unchanged?
October 22 at 12:18am
Oatmeal Joy
Spike, our overall objective in life can still be disqualified. On the surface, we can say that we all believe in Jesus. But that does not have to mean that we all believe in the same Jesus.
Spike, Ronnie has not fully stated his stand on following the Torah. If you want to state an argument then you must live that argument. I have seen Ronnie ... Read Morekeep the Torah. But I am not sure if he is keeping all of the Torah. I know that I am keeping the Torah. But we are to keep all the Torah. I am not sure how to keep all the Torah. And I am yet to see anybody (including my sisters, or Lincoln Hawk) keep the entire Torah (line by line).
Spike, Ronnie has not fully stated his stand on following the Torah. If you want to state an argument then you must live that argument. I have seen Ronnie ... Read Morekeep the Torah. But I am not sure if he is keeping all of the Torah. I know that I am keeping the Torah. But we are to keep all the Torah. I am not sure how to keep all the Torah. And I am yet to see anybody (including my sisters, or Lincoln Hawk) keep the entire Torah (line by line).
October 22 at 1:01am
Spike Arndt
Let me do some clarification.
Faith is faith because you question it but still retain it. In humans, it takes others longer to grow their faith then some. I am not saying what is true for you is true for you, and that is true for me is true for me. I am attempting to say that i want everyone to look at ourselves with sober judgement and desire to ... Read Morerealize if we are arguing because we are comfortable where our faith is, and because of that comfort, we desire to remain complacent in our beliefs and remain closed to the possibilities of God's word or open to the possibilities of the Spirit.
Faith is hard, it is difficult, and it is often the most difficult of man's abilities to perform. but to read the word and realize that to let ourselves go within it may mean that our lives will be turned upside down, and we will find ourselves deep with a desire to know and understand more about it. Often times finding that the truth is neither what we thought we knew, or for that matter, the very same as we had read only the day before.
I hope to warn against complacency, and letting ourselves be open to the Word of God and whatever answers are revealed to us depending on our level of faith.
Faith is faith because you question it but still retain it. In humans, it takes others longer to grow their faith then some. I am not saying what is true for you is true for you, and that is true for me is true for me. I am attempting to say that i want everyone to look at ourselves with sober judgement and desire to ... Read Morerealize if we are arguing because we are comfortable where our faith is, and because of that comfort, we desire to remain complacent in our beliefs and remain closed to the possibilities of God's word or open to the possibilities of the Spirit.
Faith is hard, it is difficult, and it is often the most difficult of man's abilities to perform. but to read the word and realize that to let ourselves go within it may mean that our lives will be turned upside down, and we will find ourselves deep with a desire to know and understand more about it. Often times finding that the truth is neither what we thought we knew, or for that matter, the very same as we had read only the day before.
I hope to warn against complacency, and letting ourselves be open to the Word of God and whatever answers are revealed to us depending on our level of faith.
October 22 at 1:15am
Oatmeal Joy
Spike, Ronnie may have a problem with the part where you say ".....(The Bible)..... speaks differently to all. The message is the same, but we all understand the words differently...take their meaning at opposing angles based on how we interpret them..." If the Bible is written to us then it has to be the same and not different. Spike, are you ... Read Moretrying to spiritualize the Bible. The Bible is written directly to us, point blank. There should be no problem with following the Torah. We are the direct recipients, end of discussion. Now, we just have to make movies and websites about it in the full depths of howness!
October 22 at 1:19am
Spike Arndt
Nor will you Joey. To strive for perfection is the desire of man, but failure in this is his ultimate destiny. Man-kind is imperfect, but it is the trying that is the importance.
October 22 at 1:19am
Spike Arndt
but kudos for your part, Joey.
October 22 at 1:21am
Oatmeal Joy
Spike, we are to strive for perfection, totally, likewise, same to you, but can we still, in the mist of that, keep the Torah in the same way that it was originally kept?
October 22 at 1:30am
Spike Arndt
Joey, you are right. But 3 men can read the same verse of the bible, and you will receive three different ideas about the meaning of that verse. Point blank or not, I am saying simply that humans WILL interpret the bible differently because they are human and imperfect. God tried to make us perfect, but that darn apple was just to tempting...
October 22 at 1:33am
Oatmeal Joy
Spike, THEREFORE, IF HOW WE ARE TO ACTUALLY LIVE OUT THE TORAH RIGHT NOW TODAY AND ALWAYS is then therefore somehow directly in connection and determination through the lens and perspective and theology and point of view to that very INTERPRETATION WHICH DETERMINES HOW WE ARE TO KEEP TORAH, then, therefore .... .. . . . [in the sake of these some ... Read More160 or more comments on this, for the sake of all our marbles, for all the money in the world, we are all eager to know, we are all dying for, then].. . . . .. how are we to then correctly and thoroughly (and I mean, really, in the best way possible, because this will then determine what we do in life).... .... . .. . (how do we determine....). . . . .
do
interpretation?
do
interpretation?
October 22 at 1:51am
Spike Arndt
are you asking me give you and answer that only God can give you? You have a lot of questions Joey, but you keep asking men. Study the word, and the more you study it, God will reveal those answers. You will never get the right answer here, only in His word is it found.
October 22 at 2:32am
Ronald Gilden
Joey,
Let me extend my apologies to you. I'm sorry I didn't realize the sincerity of your heart and inquiries. I can't always wrap my head around what you're conveying, but when you speak in simpler words (because I have a simple mind), I can understand you better.
It is my fault that when you ask (point blank) how to keep (all of) Torah, I'm not ready to answer that, because not everyone is in agreement that we should. Ask our brother Jeff. Or 99% of our brothers and sisters in Christ (I made up that statistic). I see your earnestness, but I promise you it isn't the same across the board with all believers. Ask fellow believers. Ask your pastor. Ask all the pastors who chose not to even debate this topic, even though they disagree greatly with it.... Read More
Regardless of their beliefs, regardless of anyone's beliefs, you asked a question. How do we keep all of the commandments?
I don't know. Some of the commandments aren't for men, but for women. Some of them are for a specific line of priest (the Levites, or 'Kohanim'). There are some that are based on the prerequisite that we have a Torah-observant government to pass judgment and legislation. And many- many of the commandments are based around the necessary requirement that we have a Temple. Which we don't. And we can't right now. We cannot, in turn, keep all of the commandments. But neither could Israel in Jesus' day (Roman occupation saw to that). Do not write off all the commandments because we can't keep all the commandments though. Jesus didn't, and neither should we. There are still commandments that apply to us that we can act out, and commandments that WILL apply to us under the ideal (Israel restored completely, Temple, so on and so forth) circumstances.
There are people far wiser than I that could explain it to you. Jews have been attempting to for 2000 years. Pick up a book- there are many. Read as many of them as you can and discern what you can out of them (being led by the Scriptures and the Spirit- in unity and not in conflict).
However, I won't leave you with that ambiguous statement. Because ultimately I think you understand that we have limitations in our diaspora. And I understand the zeal that most people have to 'keep all the commandments' – and I'm not saying we shouldn't – but take them one at a time. So start with the ones you can understand. Start with keeping Sabbath.
How do I personally keep Sabbath? At sundown on Friday, I cease shopping, buying, selling, and working. I have dinner with my family, and I go to church on Saturday (the 'Holy convocation' – that is, assembling with other believers to worship, i.e. church). I spend the rest of Sabbath hanging out with family, friends, reading my Bible, enjoying a dvd, a video game- whatever. I rest. Once the sun goes down on Saturday, it's back to the daily grind (shopping, buying, selling, working, etc...).
For scripture on how to keep it, try Ex. 20:8-11, Ex. 31:12-17, Ex. 35:1-3, Lev. 23:1-3 & 32, Deut. 5:12-15, Neh. 10:31, Neh. 13:16-18, and for bonus reading- Gen. 2:1-3 and Heb. 4.
Oh, and read this...
http://www.graftedin.com/images/Parashot/01ChaggimShabbat.pdf
I understand there are many questions yet to be answered about even that one commandment. But just start with that one, and we'll see where that takes us. Sabbath is a blessing, not a burden. Find rest in God and the provisions Messiah has given us. Start with this one, because according to Isaiah 66:22-24, we'll be keeping it forever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and...
I'll respond to some of the other posts, just as soon as I get some sleeping accomplished...
Peace out, good sir.
Let me extend my apologies to you. I'm sorry I didn't realize the sincerity of your heart and inquiries. I can't always wrap my head around what you're conveying, but when you speak in simpler words (because I have a simple mind), I can understand you better.
It is my fault that when you ask (point blank) how to keep (all of) Torah, I'm not ready to answer that, because not everyone is in agreement that we should. Ask our brother Jeff. Or 99% of our brothers and sisters in Christ (I made up that statistic). I see your earnestness, but I promise you it isn't the same across the board with all believers. Ask fellow believers. Ask your pastor. Ask all the pastors who chose not to even debate this topic, even though they disagree greatly with it.... Read More
Regardless of their beliefs, regardless of anyone's beliefs, you asked a question. How do we keep all of the commandments?
I don't know. Some of the commandments aren't for men, but for women. Some of them are for a specific line of priest (the Levites, or 'Kohanim'). There are some that are based on the prerequisite that we have a Torah-observant government to pass judgment and legislation. And many- many of the commandments are based around the necessary requirement that we have a Temple. Which we don't. And we can't right now. We cannot, in turn, keep all of the commandments. But neither could Israel in Jesus' day (Roman occupation saw to that). Do not write off all the commandments because we can't keep all the commandments though. Jesus didn't, and neither should we. There are still commandments that apply to us that we can act out, and commandments that WILL apply to us under the ideal (Israel restored completely, Temple, so on and so forth) circumstances.
There are people far wiser than I that could explain it to you. Jews have been attempting to for 2000 years. Pick up a book- there are many. Read as many of them as you can and discern what you can out of them (being led by the Scriptures and the Spirit- in unity and not in conflict).
However, I won't leave you with that ambiguous statement. Because ultimately I think you understand that we have limitations in our diaspora. And I understand the zeal that most people have to 'keep all the commandments' – and I'm not saying we shouldn't – but take them one at a time. So start with the ones you can understand. Start with keeping Sabbath.
How do I personally keep Sabbath? At sundown on Friday, I cease shopping, buying, selling, and working. I have dinner with my family, and I go to church on Saturday (the 'Holy convocation' – that is, assembling with other believers to worship, i.e. church). I spend the rest of Sabbath hanging out with family, friends, reading my Bible, enjoying a dvd, a video game- whatever. I rest. Once the sun goes down on Saturday, it's back to the daily grind (shopping, buying, selling, working, etc...).
For scripture on how to keep it, try Ex. 20:8-11, Ex. 31:12-17, Ex. 35:1-3, Lev. 23:1-3 & 32, Deut. 5:12-15, Neh. 10:31, Neh. 13:16-18, and for bonus reading- Gen. 2:1-3 and Heb. 4.
Oh, and read this...
http://www.graftedin.com/i
I understand there are many questions yet to be answered about even that one commandment. But just start with that one, and we'll see where that takes us. Sabbath is a blessing, not a burden. Find rest in God and the provisions Messiah has given us. Start with this one, because according to Isaiah 66:22-24, we'll be keeping it forever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and...
I'll respond to some of the other posts, just as soon as I get some sleeping accomplished...
Peace out, good sir.
October 22 at 11:29am
Oatmeal Joy
Ronnie Gilden, that is exactly right, we must keep what we must (can, should) keep! Jeffrey Walters must keep what he must keep. Blake Webb must keep what he must keep. We must all keep what we must keep. The issue really is in that. The heart to this whole discussion is all about what we can keep and what we cannot keep. The issue never was ever about whether we must keep what we must keep. We all know that we must keep what we must keep. I really like saying that. That might become my new slogan, "We must keep what we must keep..... with oatmeal in my bowl, is Jesus in your soul.... with oatmeal in my sleep.... we must keep what we must keep." But I am only saying this because it is so obvious that we already know that we must keep what we must keep. Jeffrey Walters agrees. But the issue then really goes past the should we to the how do we keep what we must keep, or what must we keep. Must we keep what we must keep? Of course. But what must we keep? That is our question. What can we still do. We do not have a temple but they may be building a new temple soon. But if anybody is still reading this long paragraph, please know that there has to be a reason why there is such a feud between how we must keep the law. We have to ask ourselves why is there such a divide between how we are to do them. I will have to buy a vowel right now. I will have to bring out that nasty word Application again. Once upon a time, application had a father, his name was interpretation. You like that story.
Ronnie, my apologies, likewise, or moreover, because I really like that last post, especially since you used my cousin's name, mister David Application. My cousin, David, is 44. Only because 4 is my favorite number. He obviously does not exist. But this discussion sure does exist. But I also have to apologize because I am actually already aware that we cannot keep what we cannot keep. For example, if we do not have a temple then we would have to pretend that we had a temple (which would make us liars). But moreover, even through I am guilty as charge, even through I know that we can only keep what we must keep, there was still a reason why I said that I wanted to keep all of the law, even what I cannot do. I know that everybody has the full right to throw me out of the discussion. Do so at your own risk. I know that I am not worthy of this discussion. I know that I often sound sarcastic when I write or mean or whatever. I know that I type too much, too often. I use too many words. I repeat myself. I am too wordy. I say the same thing over and over. i either form long sentences or short ones. I make up silly illustrations. Dear world, you don't have to forgive me. You can always delete me from this discussion or from your friendship. But I will still continue to dance in this ballroom. Feel free to get rid of me. To delete these comments. But I beg you not to. And I am only begging because I actually have more to say. Oh no, I really do have more to say. And someday, I will do just that, I should take a couple days off from this discussion. You should beg me to stay away from this place for a day or for a week. But until then, I will say more about how we are to keep what we must keep.
How literal is the Bible? Is the Bible written directly to us? Why or how does the Bible ever like SEEM to be merely contradictory through improper interpretation/application? ... Read More
Dear world, there is a reason why Jeffrey Walters says what he says. And the answers to what or why Jeff says what he says would somehow be found in the answers to how or what we must keep. Please beg me to stop writing for a couple of days, especially if none of this is making any sense.............. . . .. . . .. . . . . .. . . . . .. .. . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . . . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . .. . . . . . .. . . . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . . .. . . . . . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . . . . .. .. . .. . . . . . .. . . . . . . .. . . . . (connect the dots, too, by the way). . .. . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . .. . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . .. . . . . .. . . . . .. . .. . . . . .. . . . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . .. . . . . .. . . . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . .. . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . . .. . . . . . . . .. . . . . ..
Ronnie, my apologies, likewise, or moreover, because I really like that last post, especially since you used my cousin's name, mister David Application. My cousin, David, is 44. Only because 4 is my favorite number. He obviously does not exist. But this discussion sure does exist. But I also have to apologize because I am actually already aware that we cannot keep what we cannot keep. For example, if we do not have a temple then we would have to pretend that we had a temple (which would make us liars). But moreover, even through I am guilty as charge, even through I know that we can only keep what we must keep, there was still a reason why I said that I wanted to keep all of the law, even what I cannot do. I know that everybody has the full right to throw me out of the discussion. Do so at your own risk. I know that I am not worthy of this discussion. I know that I often sound sarcastic when I write or mean or whatever. I know that I type too much, too often. I use too many words. I repeat myself. I am too wordy. I say the same thing over and over. i either form long sentences or short ones. I make up silly illustrations. Dear world, you don't have to forgive me. You can always delete me from this discussion or from your friendship. But I will still continue to dance in this ballroom. Feel free to get rid of me. To delete these comments. But I beg you not to. And I am only begging because I actually have more to say. Oh no, I really do have more to say. And someday, I will do just that, I should take a couple days off from this discussion. You should beg me to stay away from this place for a day or for a week. But until then, I will say more about how we are to keep what we must keep.
How literal is the Bible? Is the Bible written directly to us? Why or how does the Bible ever like SEEM to be merely contradictory through improper interpretation/application
Dear world, there is a reason why Jeffrey Walters says what he says. And the answers to what or why Jeff says what he says would somehow be found in the answers to how or what we must keep. Please beg me to stop writing for a couple of days, especially if none of this is making any sense.............. . . .. . . .. . . . . .. . . . . .. .. . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . . . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . .. . . . . . .. . . . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . . .. . . . . . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . . . . .. .. . .. . . . . . .. . . . . . . .. . . . . (connect the dots, too, by the way). . .. . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . .. . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . .. . . . . .. . . . . .. . .. . . . . .. . . . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . .. . . . . .. . . . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . .. . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . . .. . . . . . . . .. . . . . ..
October 22 at 3:53pm
Ra Ra Roberto
Should I be Jewish or Christian?
October 23 at 3:38pm
Ronald Gilden
Regarding that link Jeff posted...
I'd like to touch on some of those scriptures, if I may. Admittedly they can be quite confusing, and hard to discern. Certainly I've wrestled with them in my own heart, and I'd like to share my conclusions with you guys, if that is permissible.
I'll re-post Jeff's link so we're all on the same 'page' (Ha! Page!? 'Cause... internet... web... page...? No? Nevermind...).... Read More
http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=588
I'm going to stick mainly to the scriptures, as that's the ultimate authority, but since these verses are (often) used for proof texting, I will also address some of the arguments provided with them.
His opening thesis that believers in Yeshua aren't obligated to follow the 'ceremonial law of the Old Testament' is an outright untruth, that is found no where in the Bible. This is, unfortunately, a misunderstanding that has permeated the church of Messiah for centuries, even millennia. Quite the opposite is true in fact. Were this not true, then why did the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15:20 charge the Gentiles coming into the Messianic movement to follow (at the minimum) four Levitical laws? And not just moral laws, but ceremonial laws, and three of them are (point blank) kosher laws.
'Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.' (Acts 15:19-21)
If Gentiles- or rather Christians- aren't obligated to keep the 'ceremonial laws', why then do the Apostles mandate 4 Levitical laws onto them? Read Levitcus 17 and 18 and you'll find them there (or try Lev. 3:17, 7:26-27, 19:4, 26:1, 26:30, Deut. 12:16, or 32:16-17). Not to beat a dead horse, but why does Paul tell the Corinthians to keep the Passover (1 Cor. 5:6-8, 10:14-22, 11:23-34), which is a ceremonial law? Or the fact that Paul performed a 'ceremonial' circumcision on Timothy, a Greek (Acts 16:3)?
The author cites Galatians 5:4 which says,
'You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.'
But the law doesn't justify us. It doesn't grant us our salvation. The theology is correct- if we are trying to attain salvation by following commandments, then Christ truly avails us nothing. For if we can earn our salvation, why did Christ die at all? But I, nor Paul, nor the Torah ever stated that we are saved due to following commandments. This is why Paul notes Abraham's salvation was granted to him through faith, and not circumcision (Rom. 4), and the writer of Hebrews notes similar instances all throughout Hebrews 11.
Moving on- the author then quotes Colossians 2:16-17 and states that the Torah was for given just for the nation of Israel. Which is true. Except we as believers are grafted into Israel. Read Romans 11. Yes, the Torah is for Israel, but what exactly do you suppose we were grafted into? And if the Torah is for the Jews only, then why did Paul repeatedly say that there is no difference between Jew and Greek- Jew and Gentile?
'And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according the the promise.' (Gal. 3:29)
The Torah is for Israel, but guess what? We're Israel! Just as the Gentiles were who came out of Egypt with the descendants of Jacob- Israel has always been comprised of Jews AND Gentiles.
I'll go into the context of this passage in a bit, but let me address it in it's current usage- Paul didn't say that Gentiles didn't have to keep the sabbath, or festivals, or eat kosher- instead he said not to let people judge them- which implies not that they didn't have to do them- but that people were judging HOW they did them. One must understand Judaism to understand all the different opinions there are to do any one of the commandments. Christ observed these things which were a shadow of things to come, and so should we.
Now here's where things get truly misguided due to proof texting. The author states (via Matt. 5:18) that Christ fulfilled the law, and therefore there is no law left to be observed. But Yeshua didn't fulfill everything. That's the point of the second coming. Why do the Jews think Yeshua is a false messiah? Because they easily recognize that He didn't fulfill all the prophesies related to the Messiah. There are still many left to be realized. And it's preposterous for Yeshua to even say something like that if He's simply going to destroy the law. In fact, it's even more preposterous to assume His purpose was to abrogate the Torah when He endlessly told people to keep the commandments from it. Why wouldn't our Lord and Savior just tell them 'Meh, don't worry about it- I'm about to do away with it anyway.'?
I'd like to touch on some of those scriptures, if I may. Admittedly they can be quite confusing, and hard to discern. Certainly I've wrestled with them in my own heart, and I'd like to share my conclusions with you guys, if that is permissible.
I'll re-post Jeff's link so we're all on the same 'page' (Ha! Page!? 'Cause... internet... web... page...? No? Nevermind...).... Read More
http://www.blueletterbible
I'm going to stick mainly to the scriptures, as that's the ultimate authority, but since these verses are (often) used for proof texting, I will also address some of the arguments provided with them.
His opening thesis that believers in Yeshua aren't obligated to follow the 'ceremonial law of the Old Testament' is an outright untruth, that is found no where in the Bible. This is, unfortunately, a misunderstanding that has permeated the church of Messiah for centuries, even millennia. Quite the opposite is true in fact. Were this not true, then why did the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15:20 charge the Gentiles coming into the Messianic movement to follow (at the minimum) four Levitical laws? And not just moral laws, but ceremonial laws, and three of them are (point blank) kosher laws.
'Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.' (Acts 15:19-21)
If Gentiles- or rather Christians- aren't obligated to keep the 'ceremonial laws', why then do the Apostles mandate 4 Levitical laws onto them? Read Levitcus 17 and 18 and you'll find them there (or try Lev. 3:17, 7:26-27, 19:4, 26:1, 26:30, Deut. 12:16, or 32:16-17). Not to beat a dead horse, but why does Paul tell the Corinthians to keep the Passover (1 Cor. 5:6-8, 10:14-22, 11:23-34), which is a ceremonial law? Or the fact that Paul performed a 'ceremonial' circumcision on Timothy, a Greek (Acts 16:3)?
The author cites Galatians 5:4 which says,
'You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.'
But the law doesn't justify us. It doesn't grant us our salvation. The theology is correct- if we are trying to attain salvation by following commandments, then Christ truly avails us nothing. For if we can earn our salvation, why did Christ die at all? But I, nor Paul, nor the Torah ever stated that we are saved due to following commandments. This is why Paul notes Abraham's salvation was granted to him through faith, and not circumcision (Rom. 4), and the writer of Hebrews notes similar instances all throughout Hebrews 11.
Moving on- the author then quotes Colossians 2:16-17 and states that the Torah was for given just for the nation of Israel. Which is true. Except we as believers are grafted into Israel. Read Romans 11. Yes, the Torah is for Israel, but what exactly do you suppose we were grafted into? And if the Torah is for the Jews only, then why did Paul repeatedly say that there is no difference between Jew and Greek- Jew and Gentile?
'And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according the the promise.' (Gal. 3:29)
The Torah is for Israel, but guess what? We're Israel! Just as the Gentiles were who came out of Egypt with the descendants of Jacob- Israel has always been comprised of Jews AND Gentiles.
I'll go into the context of this passage in a bit, but let me address it in it's current usage- Paul didn't say that Gentiles didn't have to keep the sabbath, or festivals, or eat kosher- instead he said not to let people judge them- which implies not that they didn't have to do them- but that people were judging HOW they did them. One must understand Judaism to understand all the different opinions there are to do any one of the commandments. Christ observed these things which were a shadow of things to come, and so should we.
Now here's where things get truly misguided due to proof texting. The author states (via Matt. 5:18) that Christ fulfilled the law, and therefore there is no law left to be observed. But Yeshua didn't fulfill everything. That's the point of the second coming. Why do the Jews think Yeshua is a false messiah? Because they easily recognize that He didn't fulfill all the prophesies related to the Messiah. There are still many left to be realized. And it's preposterous for Yeshua to even say something like that if He's simply going to destroy the law. In fact, it's even more preposterous to assume His purpose was to abrogate the Torah when He endlessly told people to keep the commandments from it. Why wouldn't our Lord and Savior just tell them 'Meh, don't worry about it- I'm about to do away with it anyway.'?
October 24 at 1:31am
Ronald Gilden
Now I'm about to get technical (I apologize in advance...). I try to avoid it as much as possible, but it's imperative if we're going to understand the next two cited scriptures.
'And you being dead in you trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven all you trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.' (Col. 2:14-15)
Since when is the Torah contrary to the saved? Since when is it against believers in God? We must first establish the context of this verse, which reveals that in now way was it referring to the Torah, but in fact something else entirely. ... Read More
'Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.' (Col. 2:8)
Is the Torah mere philosophy or empty deceit? Is the Torah the tradition of men? Or is it the very Word of God given to Moses by Yeshua?
'Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in [false] humility and worship of angels . . . Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as [though] living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations-- "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," which all concern things which perish with the using--according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, [false] humility, and neglect of the body, [but are] of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.' (Col. 2:18-23)
Allow me more rhetorical questions- what does the Torah have to do with the worship of angels? Is the Torah the commandments of men? My point is that Paul was not battling Torah-observance being forced upon his poor Colossians, but something else (specifically Gnosticism, which ran rampant throughout the 1st century churches). Please read all of Colossians 2 to attain the full context.
Finally, and most technically, is Ephesians 2:15. But allow me to include the surrounding verses for context.
'But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, [that is], the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man [from] the two, [thus] making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.' (Eph. 2:13-16)
What exactly was put to death? Was it the Law, or the enmity? Verse 16 clarifies this, but verse 15 is hard to understand, especially with the words added by the translators (highlighted by the brackets), so let's try without them-
'having abolished in His flesh the enmity, the law of commandments in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man, the two, making peace...' (Eph. 2:15 point blank)
The Law is never referred to as ordinances (or rather, 'dogma' as the Greek word that is used here). Not in the Apostolic scriptures, not in the Gospels, and not even in the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament). More importantly, the Torah never kept the Gentiles out of the covenant (as I've noted repeatedly through previous posts- but for unity's sake, read Num. 15:15-16 / Ex. 12:49, Lev. 19:34, 24:22, Num. 9:14, 15:29, 19:10, 35:15, Deut. 16:14, 24:17-18 & Is. 56).
So what is Paul referring to then? What is the 'middle wall of separation' he speaketh of? It's not anything in the Temple (as the wall that kept the Gentiles from entering all the way was still standing, and was never called by that name). And it's definitely not the Torah.
I'm simply going to ruin the surprise and just tell you. The middle wall was the Rabbinic traditions. It was the 'fences' that were put around the Law to keep Jews from breaking it. These fences included excluding Jews from interacting with Gentiles- the Jews believed that they were to be kept separate- walling out the Gentiles. In fact, another ancient writings from the same era clarifies this (using the same wordage no less),
'our lawgiver . . . fenced us about with impenetrable palisades and with walls of iron to the end that we should mingle in no way with any of the other nations, remaining pure in body and in spirit . . . so that we should be polluted by none nor be infected with perversions by associating with worthless persons, he has fenced us about on all sides with prescribed purifications in matters of food and drink and hearing and sight.' (Epistle Aristeas, lines 139-142)
Not only that, but with contempt the Qumran writers (Dead Sea Scrolls) referred to these Rabbinic Jews as the 'builders of the wall'.
(For an extensive study on this with citations, please go to http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Eph%202.14.pdf
and read through the in depth study. Oh, or you could just google search 'Epistle Aristeas', but I highly promote that article. It's educational.)
Please understand, it is not to my delight to bring in extra-biblical writings to clarify Paul, but once one realizes that Paul was never combating Torah observance, the entire reading of the New Testament changes. Point in fact, once that's understood, one must figure out what exactly it was he WAS competing against, and extra-biblical literature becomes necessary. I really do prefer keeping things as simple as possible.
I really hope this helps clarify some oft-misunderstood scriptures. And I don't mean that in a derogatory sense. But as Peter noted in his epistle, Paul can be quite confusing and hard to understand (2 Pet. 14-17), and I certainly don't claim to comprehend all his words.
'And you being dead in you trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven all you trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.' (Col. 2:14-15)
Since when is the Torah contrary to the saved? Since when is it against believers in God? We must first establish the context of this verse, which reveals that in now way was it referring to the Torah, but in fact something else entirely. ... Read More
'Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.' (Col. 2:8)
Is the Torah mere philosophy or empty deceit? Is the Torah the tradition of men? Or is it the very Word of God given to Moses by Yeshua?
'Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in [false] humility and worship of angels . . . Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as [though] living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations-- "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," which all concern things which perish with the using--according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, [false] humility, and neglect of the body, [but are] of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.' (Col. 2:18-23)
Allow me more rhetorical questions- what does the Torah have to do with the worship of angels? Is the Torah the commandments of men? My point is that Paul was not battling Torah-observance being forced upon his poor Colossians, but something else (specifically Gnosticism, which ran rampant throughout the 1st century churches). Please read all of Colossians 2 to attain the full context.
Finally, and most technically, is Ephesians 2:15. But allow me to include the surrounding verses for context.
'But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, [that is], the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man [from] the two, [thus] making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.' (Eph. 2:13-16)
What exactly was put to death? Was it the Law, or the enmity? Verse 16 clarifies this, but verse 15 is hard to understand, especially with the words added by the translators (highlighted by the brackets), so let's try without them-
'having abolished in His flesh the enmity, the law of commandments in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man, the two, making peace...' (Eph. 2:15 point blank)
The Law is never referred to as ordinances (or rather, 'dogma' as the Greek word that is used here). Not in the Apostolic scriptures, not in the Gospels, and not even in the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament). More importantly, the Torah never kept the Gentiles out of the covenant (as I've noted repeatedly through previous posts- but for unity's sake, read Num. 15:15-16 / Ex. 12:49, Lev. 19:34, 24:22, Num. 9:14, 15:29, 19:10, 35:15, Deut. 16:14, 24:17-18 & Is. 56).
So what is Paul referring to then? What is the 'middle wall of separation' he speaketh of? It's not anything in the Temple (as the wall that kept the Gentiles from entering all the way was still standing, and was never called by that name). And it's definitely not the Torah.
I'm simply going to ruin the surprise and just tell you. The middle wall was the Rabbinic traditions. It was the 'fences' that were put around the Law to keep Jews from breaking it. These fences included excluding Jews from interacting with Gentiles- the Jews believed that they were to be kept separate- walling out the Gentiles. In fact, another ancient writings from the same era clarifies this (using the same wordage no less),
'our lawgiver . . . fenced us about with impenetrable palisades and with walls of iron to the end that we should mingle in no way with any of the other nations, remaining pure in body and in spirit . . . so that we should be polluted by none nor be infected with perversions by associating with worthless persons, he has fenced us about on all sides with prescribed purifications in matters of food and drink and hearing and sight.' (Epistle Aristeas, lines 139-142)
Not only that, but with contempt the Qumran writers (Dead Sea Scrolls) referred to these Rabbinic Jews as the 'builders of the wall'.
(For an extensive study on this with citations, please go to http://www.torahresource.c
and read through the in depth study. Oh, or you could just google search 'Epistle Aristeas', but I highly promote that article. It's educational.)
Please understand, it is not to my delight to bring in extra-biblical writings to clarify Paul, but once one realizes that Paul was never combating Torah observance, the entire reading of the New Testament changes. Point in fact, once that's understood, one must figure out what exactly it was he WAS competing against, and extra-biblical literature becomes necessary. I really do prefer keeping things as simple as possible.
I really hope this helps clarify some oft-misunderstood scriptures. And I don't mean that in a derogatory sense. But as Peter noted in his epistle, Paul can be quite confusing and hard to understand (2 Pet. 14-17), and I certainly don't claim to comprehend all his words.
October 24 at 1:32am
Ronald Gilden
As for whether or not you should be Jewish or Christian, perhaps you could explain to me the difference according to the Bible?
October 24 at 1:34am
Oatmeal Joy
The similarities between Jews and Christians is that we both follow the same God. This same God stays the same. Jews and Christians are both saved through Jesus. Jews and Christians are both commanded to keep God's commandments. Jews and Christians both have the same Bible, the same commandments that are to be followed. Therefore, if Jews and ... Read MoreChristians have all of that in common then why is there a difference? It seems, through this reasoning alone, that Christians should call themselves Jews. If you follow God then you would have to be a Jew. It would have to be a mistake that there is even a difference between Jews and Christians to begin with. Does it not seem that way? If you are reading this then please ask yourself "Why do people say that there is a difference between Jews and Christians?"
October 24 at 11:51am
Matthew Thomas Kurtz
Well, Joey, that really depends on which sect of Judaism you're referring... (I assume you meant Judaism by "Jew" and not a Jew by heritage because the only religious difference between two people are their beliefs). You're right - Judaism, Catholicism, Christianity, and Islam (though... there's more to that, like having a different Bible - the Qur’an) all believe in the same Hebrew God. But! there is a huge difference in the beliefs of Orthodox Judaism, Messianic Judaism, and many sects I won't get into because I have insufficient knowledge of their beliefs.
Orthodox Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. A lot of Orthodox Jews believe that He never claimed to be. Many believe that He was simply a Rabbi (which is why He was called that) and that He would be shocked if He were alive today and saw how many people follow a religion based on Him. Many also simply believe that He is a false Messiah and won't utter His name. Basically, and obviously this is over-simplified, Orthodox Jews follow the Torah and the 613 Mitzvot, obey a strict application of the Oral Torah (Talmud), and are still awaiting the true Messiah and Messianic Era (or "Kingdom of God", as Jesus/Yeshua called it).
Messianic Judaism, on the other hand, is very funny to me. A lot of Messianic Jews get angry when people think that Messianic Judaism is just another form of Christianity. The fact is - it pretty much is... or Christianity is another form of Messianic Judaism. Basically, Messianic Judaism is a Torah observant form of Christianity. ... Read More
To respond to your statement Joey, you're right... We all have the same origins so we should all be the same, but we're not. People believe different things through experiences, misinterpretation, lack of comprehensive capabilities, influences, environments... All sorts of things contribute to the formation of our beliefs, which has led to all of these different sects of Judaism and Christianity. And again, these are over-simplifications of these two sects of Judaism... Do some research and find out for yourself what the differences are.
Ronnie, I never have much to add to your statements... But thank you for explaining everything in full. I don't understand why you would feel bad about being technical about the Bible... it's how you avoid misunderstanding and creating untruths.
Orthodox Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. A lot of Orthodox Jews believe that He never claimed to be. Many believe that He was simply a Rabbi (which is why He was called that) and that He would be shocked if He were alive today and saw how many people follow a religion based on Him. Many also simply believe that He is a false Messiah and won't utter His name. Basically, and obviously this is over-simplified, Orthodox Jews follow the Torah and the 613 Mitzvot, obey a strict application of the Oral Torah (Talmud), and are still awaiting the true Messiah and Messianic Era (or "Kingdom of God", as Jesus/Yeshua called it).
Messianic Judaism, on the other hand, is very funny to me. A lot of Messianic Jews get angry when people think that Messianic Judaism is just another form of Christianity. The fact is - it pretty much is... or Christianity is another form of Messianic Judaism. Basically, Messianic Judaism is a Torah observant form of Christianity. ... Read More
To respond to your statement Joey, you're right... We all have the same origins so we should all be the same, but we're not. People believe different things through experiences, misinterpretation, lack of comprehensive capabilities, influences, environments... All sorts of things contribute to the formation of our beliefs, which has led to all of these different sects of Judaism and Christianity. And again, these are over-simplifications of these two sects of Judaism... Do some research and find out for yourself what the differences are.
Ronnie, I never have much to add to your statements... But thank you for explaining everything in full. I don't understand why you would feel bad about being technical about the Bible... it's how you avoid misunderstanding and creating untruths.
October 24 at 1:06pm
Oatmeal Joy
Dear everybody, or Matthew Kurtz, what do you personally believe? How does God want us to live? What would you personally call yourself? Jew? Christian? Or something in between? Or something else all together? I really like your definition for Messianic Judaism. I understand that Messianic Judaism is not merely just the same as Christianity. I ... Read Moreunderstand that there are many different Jewish sects, especially due to misinterpretations. There are differences, of course. But are there suppose to be differences? Is God ok with all those different religions. Wouldn't God be happier if we were all united under one exact religion or denomination or sect? It seems that there is only one way to Heaven. THEREFORE, SHOULDN'T THERE BE ONLY JUST ONE WAY TO LIVE, GOD'S WAY (AND THEREFORE, WHAT IS THAT WAY, WHAT IS THAT CALLED)? Doesn't God want us to live His ways since His ways are the best ways? All I am asking is what do you, Matthew Kurtz, believe to be the best way in following God? I think everybody, here, should answer this question! If you are reading this then can you please tell us all what you think, what you believe, basically, how are we to live for God, what are we to do, exactly, and what do you personally call yourself (and why)? Christian? Jew? Something in between? Or something else all together?
October 24 at 3:35pm
Matthew Thomas Kurtz
I still call myself a Christian simply because I always have and I believe in Christ. I also believe that I am to keep His commandments (John 14:15) because I love Him. Does that make me a Messianic Jew? Certainly. Does that make me a Christian? Certainly.
These titles all start to seem irrelevant to me... They are all just ways that man has devised to vaguely state our religion, much like using a cross, a fish, a menorah or a Star of David as a symbol. None of these were commanded by God to use as a symbol. God seems to get angry when people use idols... it seems, to me, it would be the same as symbols. These things signify great things (most?) but they were not meant to signify God. The cross signifies Christ's sacrifice, the Star of David signifies David, the fish was used as a secret symbol to identify a fellow believer (they drew half of the fish in the sand and if the other person drew the other half, then they would know he was a fellow believer) and the 7-branched menorah was used in the temple... and as far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, it symbolizes nothing (I believe we started using it to symbolize the burning bush...?). We added the two extra branches to symbolize Hanukkah and to be able to use it outside of the temple.
None of these things signify God and I feel the same way about titles... ... Read More... Read More
I am a man of God (uh... 'point blank')
These titles all start to seem irrelevant to me... They are all just ways that man has devised to vaguely state our religion, much like using a cross, a fish, a menorah or a Star of David as a symbol. None of these were commanded by God to use as a symbol. God seems to get angry when people use idols... it seems, to me, it would be the same as symbols. These things signify great things (most?) but they were not meant to signify God. The cross signifies Christ's sacrifice, the Star of David signifies David, the fish was used as a secret symbol to identify a fellow believer (they drew half of the fish in the sand and if the other person drew the other half, then they would know he was a fellow believer) and the 7-branched menorah was used in the temple... and as far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, it symbolizes nothing (I believe we started using it to symbolize the burning bush...?). We added the two extra branches to symbolize Hanukkah and to be able to use it outside of the temple.
None of these things signify God and I feel the same way about titles... ... Read More... Read More
I am a man of God (uh... 'point blank')
October 24 at 5:29pm
Martha Sheppard
Joey, you should be quiet. SEriously. Stop talking.
October 25 at 12:49pm
David Sheppard
Joey,
1 Kings 2:2-3 and Deu 6:5 is how I strive to live and a Post and Pre-Messianic Era Believing Karaite Jew is what I call myself. However, (as Matt said) my title means little to nothing, it's what I do that defines me.
As for Martha's comment, I concur.
1 Kings 2:2-3 and Deu 6:5 is how I strive to live and a Post and Pre-Messianic Era Believing Karaite Jew is what I call myself. However, (as Matt said) my title means little to nothing, it's what I do that defines me.
As for Martha's comment, I concur.
October 25 at 1:37pm
Blake Webb
lol @ martha sheppard's comment.
October 25 at 2:12pm
Martha Sheppard
too long to read all the comments but I will soon. I agree with Ronnie.
Joey, the Holy Spirit is supposed to give you the strength to be able to live out God's Word.
Joey, the Holy Spirit is supposed to give you the strength to be able to live out God's Word.
October 25 at 8:19pm
October 25 at 8:21pm
Martha Sheppard
I call myself a Christian who follows a Jewish Messiah. He may be the Messiah for the whole world but he was born to a Jewish mama, raised by a Jewish abba, went to a Jewish synagogue, prayed Jewish prayers, AND before he became a man, led a group of slaves into a desert and formed a Jewish nation which later became the Christian church. We ARE Jewish in heritage (whether anybody likes it or not) - it's just that we have been living in a foster home for 2000 years and now it is time to be reunited with the family that gave birth to us.
and Joey, I really don't care if you talk - but I don't feel like you are even reading the posts. I shouldn't have said that earlier - it was not very kind - I just want you to read and study before coming back with a quick retort.
I feel like you are saying that you can't possibly follow God's commandments and I would say to you that the whole doctrine of holiness (taught in the Army and the Bible) says that you can by his strength. Obviously, we can't do everything right all the time but that's not what it is about . . .it's about serving a God out of love and it's about Him changing us from the inside out. that's what the Holy Spirit does - he brings Christ to life IN us - and Christ followed the Law . . .so if Christ is living in you, he will bring it to your mind more and more the closer you get to him. ... Read More
That's been God's intent all throughout the whole Bible - old testament, prophets, new testament - etc. Transformation, reunification, loving others . . .
and Joey, I really don't care if you talk - but I don't feel like you are even reading the posts. I shouldn't have said that earlier - it was not very kind - I just want you to read and study before coming back with a quick retort.
I feel like you are saying that you can't possibly follow God's commandments and I would say to you that the whole doctrine of holiness (taught in the Army and the Bible) says that you can by his strength. Obviously, we can't do everything right all the time but that's not what it is about . . .it's about serving a God out of love and it's about Him changing us from the inside out. that's what the Holy Spirit does - he brings Christ to life IN us - and Christ followed the Law . . .so if Christ is living in you, he will bring it to your mind more and more the closer you get to him. ... Read More
That's been God's intent all throughout the whole Bible - old testament, prophets, new testament - etc. Transformation, reunification, loving others . . .
October 25 at 8:32pm
Oatmeal Joy
But is the non-Jewish Salvation Army at fault because they are not Jewish?
October 26 at 1:18am
Ronald Gilden
Uh oh... Joey's asking questions people might not want to delve into...
Out of curiosity Joey, could you elaborate on how the Salvation Army is 'non-Jewish', and how that would put them at fault?
Also, you asked the question, but never answered it for yourself- what do you consider yourself? Christian? Jew? Something else entirely? ...Oatmeal?
Out of curiosity Joey, could you elaborate on how the Salvation Army is 'non-Jewish', and how that would put them at fault?
Also, you asked the question, but never answered it for yourself- what do you consider yourself? Christian? Jew? Something else entirely? ...Oatmeal?
October 26 at 1:53am
Jeffrey Walters
i'd rather skateboard backwards downhill than continue this discussion. online-debates are like viscous circles, where nobody behaves the same as they would in person, and misunderstandings run ramped.
may i add that salvation army(ists) and messianic jews have something funny in common? they both draw a peculiar attention to themselves that is ... Read Morealmost disgusting at times. and by the by, i am a soldier.
what is there to say about the salvation army messianic jew then? where do i begin? i'm beginning to hate the word "law" as much as the word "politics".
may i add that salvation army(ists) and messianic jews have something funny in common? they both draw a peculiar attention to themselves that is ... Read Morealmost disgusting at times. and by the by, i am a soldier.
what is there to say about the salvation army messianic jew then? where do i begin? i'm beginning to hate the word "law" as much as the word "politics".
October 26 at 12:49pm
Matthew Thomas Kurtz
That was hardly beneficial... or rather, not at all. Some people, yes - they act very different online... But the rude things that were said recently have been apologized for.
I don't understand why you're putting everyone down, suddenly, on such a large scale... Is everyone here behaving abnormally? Me? Ronnie? Joey? Spike? Madison? David? It ... Read Moreseems like we're all saying exactly what we would say (and have said) in person.
Not to mention the fact that this conversation has extended (and originated) outside of the internet.
I don't understand why you're putting everyone down, suddenly, on such a large scale... Is everyone here behaving abnormally? Me? Ronnie? Joey? Spike? Madison? David? It ... Read Moreseems like we're all saying exactly what we would say (and have said) in person.
Not to mention the fact that this conversation has extended (and originated) outside of the internet.
October 26 at 1:31pm
Oatmeal Joy
Matt, but Jeff is so right.........
October 26 at 2:37pm
Jeffrey Walters
maybe i said that wrong. i meant to say that an online-debate doesn't function the same as a real-life one. i wasn't talking about people's attitudes or personality... i love that stuff. i'm sorry if i offended anyone.
October 26 at 2:41pm
Oatmeal Joy
Ronald Gilden, If you can lose your salvation then Jeffrey Walters is also totally and completely and utterly wrong for everything he is saying or thinking or trying to say about the law or about living or anything at all in life in regards to this whole entire discussion, period, end of discussion, dear Blake Webb, Madison Bowers, Matt Kurtz, Rob ... Read MoreNoland, Janet Bailey, Martha Sheppard, Jews, Christians, Mormons, atheists, Crystal Ball, Katie Jean Arnold, Salvation Army, world, people everywhere forever, hear my roar, hear my words, and hear the things that I am still yet to say (especially in the implications or extensions to what I am about to say or am not saying, grrrrrr)!
October 26 at 5:01pm
Matthew Thomas Kurtz
If people remain civilized and literate, online debates can be exceedingly more beneficial than a verbal discussion. If a verbal discussion gets heated, often times people start talking over each other and shut down/stop listening. Also, when people get emotional they tend to forget things they already know - making them look stupid and their point... Read More irrelevant, even if they are right. Also, in an online debate you can check references and cite scriptures and keep facts straight without the pressure of a person standing face to face with you waiting for a rebuttal...
I could go on and on about this, but the biggest reason an online debate is better than a verbal discussion is that it's on-going. Everyday you sign on to check and see what people have said lately... it helps keep me focused and thinking whereas words are fleeting in the abyss that is my mind.
I could go on and on about this, but the biggest reason an online debate is better than a verbal discussion is that it's on-going. Everyday you sign on to check and see what people have said lately... it helps keep me focused and thinking whereas words are fleeting in the abyss that is my mind.
October 26 at 5:56pm
Cheri Gilden
I am amused how the books of Psalms & Proverbs has eluded the Old Testament holocaust when you often find it coupled in exclusive New Testament Bibles. Below is a simple fill in the blank of Psalm 119 from the NIV. (Due to facebook limiting my space I’m only listing the verses needed to play the game)
Psalm 119 (New International Version)
1 Blessed are they whose ways are blameless,
... Read More
who walk according to the _______ of the LORD.
7 I will praise you with an upright heart
as I learn your righteous _______s.
13 With my lips I recount
all the _______s that come from your mouth.
18 Open my eyes that I may see
wonderful things in your _______.
20 My soul is consumed with longing
for your _______s at all times.
29 Keep me from deceitful ways;
be gracious to me through your _______.
30 I have chosen the way of truth;
I have set my heart on your _______s.
34 Give me understanding, and I will keep your _______
and obey it with all my heart.
39 Take away the disgrace I dread,
for your _______s are good.
43 Do not snatch the word of truth from my mouth,
for I have put my hope in your _______s.
44 I will always obey your _______,
for ever and ever.
51 The arrogant mock me without restraint,
but I do not turn from your _______.
52 I remember your ancient _______s, O LORD,
and I find comfort in them.
53 Indignation grips me because of the wicked,
who have forsaken your _______.
55 In the night I remember your name, O LORD,
and I will keep your _______.
61 Though the wicked bind me with ropes,
I will not forget your _______.
62 At midnight I rise to give you thanks
for your righteous _______s.
70 Their hearts are callous and unfeeling,
but I delight in your _______.
72 The _______ from your mouth is more precious to me
than thousands of pieces of silver and gold.
75 I know, O LORD, that your _______s are righteous,
and in faithfulness you have afflicted me.
77 Let your compassion come to me that I may live,
for your _______ is my delight.
85 The arrogant dig pitfalls for me,
contrary to your _______.
91 Your _______s endure to this day,
for all things serve you.
92 If your _______ had not been my delight,
I would have perished in my affliction.
97 Oh, how I love your _______!
I meditate on it all day long.
102 I have not departed from your _______s,
for you yourself have taught me.
106 I have taken an oath and confirmed it,
that I will follow your righteous _______s.
108 Accept, O LORD, the willing praise of my mouth,
and teach me your _______s.
109 Though I constantly take my life in my hands,
I will not forget your _______.
113 I hate double-minded men,
but I love your _______.
120 My flesh trembles in fear of you;
I stand in awe of your _______s.
126 It is time for you to act, O LORD;
your _______ is being broken.
136 Streams of tears flow from my eyes,
for your _______ is not obeyed.
137 Righteous are you, O LORD,
and your _______s are right.
142 Your righteousness is everlasting
and your _______ is true.
149 Hear my voice in accordance with your love;
preserve my life, O LORD, according to your _______s.
150 Those who devise wicked schemes are near,
but they are far from your _______.
153 Look upon my suffering and deliver me,
for I have not forgotten your _______.
156 Your compassion is great, O LORD;
preserve my life according to your _______s.
160 All your words are true;
all your righteous _______s are eternal.
163 I hate and abhor falsehood
but I love your _______.
164 Seven times a day I praise you
for your righteous _______s.
165 Great peace have they who love your _______,
and nothing can make them stumble.
174 I long for your salvation, O LORD,
and your _______ is my delight.
175 Let me live that I may praise you,
and may your _______s sustain me.
Evidently there is substance to this law thing when the psalmist found it important to use the word 45 times in one chapter.
Psalm 119 (New International Version)
1 Blessed are they whose ways are blameless,
... Read More
who walk according to the _______ of the LORD.
7 I will praise you with an upright heart
as I learn your righteous _______s.
13 With my lips I recount
all the _______s that come from your mouth.
18 Open my eyes that I may see
wonderful things in your _______.
20 My soul is consumed with longing
for your _______s at all times.
29 Keep me from deceitful ways;
be gracious to me through your _______.
30 I have chosen the way of truth;
I have set my heart on your _______s.
34 Give me understanding, and I will keep your _______
and obey it with all my heart.
39 Take away the disgrace I dread,
for your _______s are good.
43 Do not snatch the word of truth from my mouth,
for I have put my hope in your _______s.
44 I will always obey your _______,
for ever and ever.
51 The arrogant mock me without restraint,
but I do not turn from your _______.
52 I remember your ancient _______s, O LORD,
and I find comfort in them.
53 Indignation grips me because of the wicked,
who have forsaken your _______.
55 In the night I remember your name, O LORD,
and I will keep your _______.
61 Though the wicked bind me with ropes,
I will not forget your _______.
62 At midnight I rise to give you thanks
for your righteous _______s.
70 Their hearts are callous and unfeeling,
but I delight in your _______.
72 The _______ from your mouth is more precious to me
than thousands of pieces of silver and gold.
75 I know, O LORD, that your _______s are righteous,
and in faithfulness you have afflicted me.
77 Let your compassion come to me that I may live,
for your _______ is my delight.
85 The arrogant dig pitfalls for me,
contrary to your _______.
91 Your _______s endure to this day,
for all things serve you.
92 If your _______ had not been my delight,
I would have perished in my affliction.
97 Oh, how I love your _______!
I meditate on it all day long.
102 I have not departed from your _______s,
for you yourself have taught me.
106 I have taken an oath and confirmed it,
that I will follow your righteous _______s.
108 Accept, O LORD, the willing praise of my mouth,
and teach me your _______s.
109 Though I constantly take my life in my hands,
I will not forget your _______.
113 I hate double-minded men,
but I love your _______.
120 My flesh trembles in fear of you;
I stand in awe of your _______s.
126 It is time for you to act, O LORD;
your _______ is being broken.
136 Streams of tears flow from my eyes,
for your _______ is not obeyed.
137 Righteous are you, O LORD,
and your _______s are right.
142 Your righteousness is everlasting
and your _______ is true.
149 Hear my voice in accordance with your love;
preserve my life, O LORD, according to your _______s.
150 Those who devise wicked schemes are near,
but they are far from your _______.
153 Look upon my suffering and deliver me,
for I have not forgotten your _______.
156 Your compassion is great, O LORD;
preserve my life according to your _______s.
160 All your words are true;
all your righteous _______s are eternal.
163 I hate and abhor falsehood
but I love your _______.
164 Seven times a day I praise you
for your righteous _______s.
165 Great peace have they who love your _______,
and nothing can make them stumble.
174 I long for your salvation, O LORD,
and your _______ is my delight.
175 Let me live that I may praise you,
and may your _______s sustain me.
Evidently there is substance to this law thing when the psalmist found it important to use the word 45 times in one chapter.
October 26 at 7:06pm
Jeffrey Walters
the previous post is a good example for why i said what i said about this debate. this thing will continuously go in circles. the law was never denounced, it was fulfilled. the law is good. anyways, i love you all. god bless and good luck!
ps.
joey, did you really just say "hear my roar" ? hahaha
ps.
joey, did you really just say "hear my roar" ? hahaha
October 26 at 9:29pm
Oatmeal Joy
Hear my roar! THE MAIN PROBLEM (WHICH IS WHY I KEEP ON WRITING IS IN WHAT RONNIE IS ACTUALLY NOT YET SAYING)...... is in what Ronnie is not yet saying....... you can say that again........ you can say that again...... you can say that again......
October 26 at 11:10pm
David Sheppard
Yes Jeff, it was fulfilled! The question is... Does that mean we should "hate" it? Does that mean that the laws written in it are no longer relevant (before you answer those be sure to read Mat 5:17-18 again)?
You're statement "I'd rather skateboard backwards downhill than continue this discussion" is actually quite shocking. Why would anyone ... Read Morewant to do anything else than discuss scripture?
And as for online debates going in circles... I will not deny that this sometimes happens. But it's only because some people are too ignorant to except scripture. When both sides of the argument / debate/ discussion / whatever are open to learn new things than the conversation is very beneficial. Also, debates not only help people to think in different mindsets, but also provokes both parties to read more scripture. And there is nothing wrong with reading scripture :)
You're statement "I'd rather skateboard backwards downhill than continue this discussion" is actually quite shocking. Why would anyone ... Read Morewant to do anything else than discuss scripture?
And as for online debates going in circles... I will not deny that this sometimes happens. But it's only because some people are too ignorant to except scripture. When both sides of the argument / debate/ discussion / whatever are open to learn new things than the conversation is very beneficial. Also, debates not only help people to think in different mindsets, but also provokes both parties to read more scripture. And there is nothing wrong with reading scripture :)
October 27 at 5:17pm
Blake Webb
should i celebrate passover or communion?
October 27 at 7:33pm
Blake Webb
or both?
October 27 at 7:39pm
David Sheppard
Passover is a feast that is commanded by God (Exodus 12) to celebrate and is something that Jesus participated in every year of his life.
The Communion practiced regularly in the Catholic and Christian churches today is a tradition based off of what happened at the Passover feast (1 Corinthians 11:23-25), however, it is not what Christ intended.
All Christ was saying is that when you partake in the Passover feast, think of me. The Church, however, has turned it away from it's roots (which is Passover) and twisted it into a regularly practiced tradition which is not what Christ intended.... Read More
Personally, I technically observe both, because while participating in the Passover feast I'm also thinking of Christ body when I break the bread and of his blood when I drink the... grape juice, heh, no wine for me.
In the end if you decide not to observe Passover, it's still very interesting and definitely something worth studying.
The Communion practiced regularly in the Catholic and Christian churches today is a tradition based off of what happened at the Passover feast (1 Corinthians 11:23-25), however, it is not what Christ intended.
All Christ was saying is that when you partake in the Passover feast, think of me. The Church, however, has turned it away from it's roots (which is Passover) and twisted it into a regularly practiced tradition which is not what Christ intended.... Read More
Personally, I technically observe both, because while participating in the Passover feast I'm also thinking of Christ body when I break the bread and of his blood when I drink the... grape juice, heh, no wine for me.
In the end if you decide not to observe Passover, it's still very interesting and definitely something worth studying.
October 27 at 9:02pm
Oatmeal Joy
DID JESUS CHRIST REALLY KEEP THE PASSOVER AFTER HE WAS DEAD, AFTER HE HAD DIED, WHY OR WHY NOT, COMMENT HERE BELOW, NOW, RIGHT NOW, OR FOREVER HOLD YOUR OWN DEATH (I LIKE CAPS BUT I AM NOT YELLING, I AM SIMPLY IN UTTER CONFUSION ABOUT THESE THINGS, AND PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR WHAT I AM GOING TO SAY, WHAT I AM GOING TO DO)???????????? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMSpjyyRa8E&NR=1
October 28 at 1:31pm
Jeffrey Walters
david, who said we should hate the law?
October 28 at 2:01pm
Oatmeal Joy
David, Jeff is trying to say, "Of course the law is relevant, but the real question is HOW IS IT RELEVANT, BECAUSE THE LAW IS TOTALLY RELEVANT, BUT HOW IS IT RELEVANT IS THE QUESTION?" AND I AM GOING TO SAY THIS AGAIN..............................
October 28 at 3:00pm
David Sheppard
You said you were beginning to "hate the word law".
Joey, he did keep Passover. If he didn't than he would have been breaking a command of God, therefore he could not be sinless, therefore could not be our Messiah. You believe he's your Savior from sin, yes? Than you must then also believe he celebrated Passover. Also, out of personal preference... Read More, please avoid using caps lock. It can become quite annoying.
As for why the law is relevant ... wait ... didn't you just say "Of course the law is relevant"? Why do I need to answer this question O.o?
Joey, he did keep Passover. If he didn't than he would have been breaking a command of God, therefore he could not be sinless, therefore could not be our Messiah. You believe he's your Savior from sin, yes? Than you must then also believe he celebrated Passover. Also, out of personal preference... Read More, please avoid using caps lock. It can become quite annoying.
As for why the law is relevant ... wait ... didn't you just say "Of course the law is relevant"? Why do I need to answer this question O.o?
October 28 at 4:14pm
Oatmeal Joy
David, no, did Jesus keep the passover after Jesus died on the cross? After Jesus was dead? I already know Jesus kept passover while Jesus was alive. And did Jesus ever break the law? And the question is not "Is the law relevant?" The question is "How is the law then relevant, how so, how so, how so, how so, how so, how so?" Question marks. I will ... Read Morebe using cap locks again. Sorry. I am going to repeat myself. So, stop reading my comments. I will only repeat myself. Nothing new there. Crystal Ball. Ann Arnold. But did Jesus always keep the Sabbath? Did Jesus always keep the law? Did Jesus keep passover after Jesus was dead in the grave?
David, I know Jesus kept passover. But why did Jesus break bread? Was not passover a symbol for communion? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMSpjyyRa8E&NR=1
David, I know Jesus kept passover. But why did Jesus break bread? Was not passover a symbol for communion? http://www.youtube.com/wat
October 28 at 4:29pm
Jeffrey Walters
so, because i am "beginning to hate the word law", suddenly now i hate the law? and matt wanders why i don't like this discussion.
throw me a bone, guys! jeez loo -eez.
shoot, i love the law. i shave my face though.
throw me a bone, guys! jeez loo -eez.
shoot, i love the law. i shave my face though.
October 28 at 9:50pm
David Sheppard
I never said you "hated the law". The point I meant to get across was simply why would anyone even hate that word? A word represents God's teachings, commands, and promises. A word that is Holy, Righteous and Good (Romans 7:12). Also, it's amazing to me when someone says they love the law, yet cares nothing about keeping it. Ronnie has done an ... Read Moreexcellent job at explaining why he keeps Torah. Would someone please care to explain to me why one shouldn't obey God's commands?
As for shaving the face I've learned some new and interesting things on that am I'm not so sure I'm against it.
As for Joey's comment, the law is relevant because the law is eternal. The law will be relevant until heaven and earth pass away (Matthew 5:18). And as for if Jesus kept the law after he rose, is there any reason he wouldn't? Why would Jesus break a law that he said previously would last forever? Was he lying before?
As for shaving the face I've learned some new and interesting things on that am I'm not so sure I'm against it.
As for Joey's comment, the law is relevant because the law is eternal. The law will be relevant until heaven and earth pass away (Matthew 5:18). And as for if Jesus kept the law after he rose, is there any reason he wouldn't? Why would Jesus break a law that he said previously would last forever? Was he lying before?
October 28 at 11:36pm
Oatmeal Joy
Torah (varsh). What is Torah (to take aim)? What does Torah (an archery term) mean? What is the Torah (to shoot)? Does Torah (pointing out) mean teaching? Does Torah (principle) mean instruction? Is the Torah (law, to parcel out) the Law? Is the Torah (nomos) the Pentateuch (the first five, my fave five)? Is the Torah the first five books of the Old Testament? Of the whole entire Bible? Those first five books that Moses wrote to his own people, Israel, in the desert, since they were fleeing Egyptian slavery? Or what else is the Torah? Is the Torah the Mishneh Torah? What does the Torah mean exactly? Does the term "Torah" also refer to the entirety to Judaism? Does Torah refer also to the legal and ethical religious texts? Is the Torah just oral or also written law or tradition? Is the Torah connected to the Mishneh? Or is the Torah the first three sections of the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible), the founding religious documents to Judaism, which is then divided into those five books (the Pentateuch)? Is the Torah just merely the Mosaic law, point blank, from the original forms of it, absent of any rabbinic interpretation? Is the Torah merely just the first covenant and that is it? The Torah can either refer to the Pentateuch or the Torah can refer to more than that. What am I trying to say? I am trying to ask about the Torah. If we want to do the Torah then we have to know how. But before we can know how to do Torah, we have to know what the Torah is. I still do not know what the Torah is exactly. WHAT IS THE TORAH EXACTLY, SOMEBODY PLEASE HELP ME? I am looking it up right now. I am reading and watching videos about it. I am back in school. I am going to figure it out. All these questions are really real. I am a Torah seeker. I really want to know how to keep the Torah. But I first got to know what the Torah is. How strictly is the Torah to be kept? The Salvation Army does not keep the Sabbath. That makes them not Jewish. So, are they then at fault? And I am going to say this again. I do not know how. I do not know what. I am going to say this again. First, what is the Torah. Second, how is the Torah then to be done. I am going to say that again. I will show you.
Torah.
What is the Torah? ... Read More
Is it the first five books? Or is it also the entirety of Jewish teachings, the Tanakh? If we want to know and do Torah then we got to get this first term down. But I am still going to say this again. I have to say this again. Deuteronomy. Second law. Repeat it. Say it again. I am going to say it again. You can say it again. Why? Tell you why later. To be continued, haha.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah
Torah.
What is the Torah? ... Read More
Is it the first five books? Or is it also the entirety of Jewish teachings, the Tanakh? If we want to know and do Torah then we got to get this first term down. But I am still going to say this again. I have to say this again. Deuteronomy. Second law. Repeat it. Say it again. I am going to say it again. You can say it again. Why? Tell you why later. To be continued, haha.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wi
October 29 at 12:11am
Oatmeal Joy
David. Did I say that the law was not relevant? I say that the law is relevant. David, are you saying that you think that I hate the law, now? Jeff believes in doing th law. But Jeff believes in a secret kind of following the law. David, we are to keep the law. David, we are to do the law. David, should I not do the law? No, that is not the ... Read Morequestion. Should I breath? Of course. Am I to eat? Of course. Am I to keep the law? Of course. Is the law relevant? Of course? Is a horse a horse? Of course? Mr. Ed. David, guess what, the law is relevant. David, guess what, the law is eternal. Of course it is. But how is it to be kept? How is it to be followed? And are we to do them without the secret spirit thing? The word of the day is not going to be relevant or Torah. Ignore my last big long post about the Torah. The word of the day will still be how. As in how do you do? As in Howie Dooodie. As in Howie Mandel. How? How are we to Torah? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVBhLdcFSMw
October 29 at 12:49am
Jeffrey Walters
i believe the law is relevant because it is summed up into 2. the relevance is not in the ordinance but in its purpose. i don't think sacrificing animals is relevant, but i believe that becoming a living sacrifice is.
and i do love the law, especially the way jesus teaches it.
and i do love the law, especially the way jesus teaches it.
October 29 at 9:45am
Emily Ward
Joey, you're asking "how." This is not a simple question or answer; people have debating it for years. There are 613 laws in the Torah (which I consider to be the first five books of Moses). We can't be concerned with each one all at once. You just have to take them one at a time. If we get obsessed over "how" to do it, I think we can become ... Read Morelegalistic or ritualistic. If we try to think about all the laws (the sacrifices, how to build the temple, what do to if you have a rash, how to celebrate the Feast of Trumpets, etc.), we'll get overwhelmed and it will just become ritual. The teaching God gave through Moses is for our benefit, not to bring us down. Start reading through Genesis, and when you see a commandment, think about how you are acting that out in your own life. It's a process, not a miracle cure. And keep in mind God will always look at your heart. The key is being faithful, not getting every law "right."
October 29 at 10:56am
Oatmeal Joy
Emily, but if we are Israel then the "how" is then very obvious, very self-explanatory, point blank. Emily, when we come up to a law, we should be able to just do it in the same way that they did it because we are them. Emily, if the Bible is written directly to us then the Bible should be very clear then. Emily, my problem is just that. Why are there so called Christians who don't want to follow Torah? Emily, why are there Christians who try running away from the Torah? Why are there even Christians to begin with? Should we not all be Torah followers? Are not the Christians at fault for denying the importance of Torah? Is not Christianity a new religion? It seems that the Christians threw Torah out the window. Emily, I am just so confused. Christians are not keeping Torah. That just makes me really sad. I just cannot understand why anybody would just not do the Torah. Why don't people want to keep Torah? Why do people make excuses? Why do people say, "Oh, we're not under that law. We're no longer under the law. We're free from the law." What are they really saying? Have they forgotten that we are to keep the Torah? If we love G-d then we will keep His commandments, right, point blank? Emily, I will do as you ask. I am reading the Bible everyday. Emily, you are right, I like this. I am even listening to an audio Bible at this web link: http://www.audiotreasure.com/indexKJV.htm
Emily, my only problem is in the Torah. Are we to just follow the 613 Mitzvot Mosaic commandments that are in the Torah which are in Tanakh (Hebrew Bible = Old Testament, I think). Emily, does God want us to just do those 613? Do we disregard anything from the New Testament (that new covenant, that new law). Should we disregard anything that is outside of the Hebrew Tanakh Bible?
Tanakh?... Read More
Tanakh = Torah?
Follow just Torah?
Or follow just the Tanakh?
Don't follow the New Testament?
Torah?
Just follow Torah?
That is it?
Stick with Tanakh?
2 Timothy 3:16 says that all Scriptures are there to help us. But that is not even talking about the New Testament. It is talking about Tanakh. Is the Tanakh just the 39 Old Testament books? Is that what makes the whole Hebrew Bible? Or the Torah? Emily, but my question is, do we follow just the commandments from the first five books? Are we to follow just the commandments from the original Hebrew Tanakh Bible? Or are we to also follow the New Testament, too? Are we to follow the commandments from the New Testament, too?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%203:16-17&version=MSG
http://teachings.joyintheworld.info/torahsalvation.html
Emily, my only problem is in the Torah. Are we to just follow the 613 Mitzvot Mosaic commandments that are in the Torah which are in Tanakh (Hebrew Bible = Old Testament, I think). Emily, does God want us to just do those 613? Do we disregard anything from the New Testament (that new covenant, that new law). Should we disregard anything that is outside of the Hebrew Tanakh Bible?
Tanakh?... Read More
Tanakh = Torah?
Follow just Torah?
Or follow just the Tanakh?
Don't follow the New Testament?
Torah?
Just follow Torah?
That is it?
Stick with Tanakh?
2 Timothy 3:16 says that all Scriptures are there to help us. But that is not even talking about the New Testament. It is talking about Tanakh. Is the Tanakh just the 39 Old Testament books? Is that what makes the whole Hebrew Bible? Or the Torah? Emily, but my question is, do we follow just the commandments from the first five books? Are we to follow just the commandments from the original Hebrew Tanakh Bible? Or are we to also follow the New Testament, too? Are we to follow the commandments from the New Testament, too?
http://www.biblegateway.co
http://teachings.joyinthew
October 29 at 1:37pm
Emily Ward
The first-century church started out as a sect within Judaism called The Way, but there were many political acts that led to the separation of Judaism and The Way. Persecution and the Fiscus Judaicus Tax drove followers of Jesus to want to be completely different from the Jews, so they adopted Sunday as their new day of worship, forsook the biblical feasts, and took other steps so people could see they were clearly not Jews. I recommend reading Restoration by Daniel T. Lancaster or buying a DVD called The Gospel in Exile. http://www.ffoz.com/index.php?target=products&product_id=97
Christians have all kinds of different reasons for not following Torah - it's different for everyone.
When people talk about being free from the law, I think they mostly take this from Galatians 3. We are free from the curse of the law - there's no way we can follow all of the laws, but we are freed from punishment of sinning because Jesus took it himself on the cross. I think people misinterpret the curse that comes from breaking the law to mean that the law itself was a curse.... Read More
I don't know, though - I need to worry about myself for now. Discussions are good and I will always stand for my beliefs, but I don't want to condemn anyone. Only God knows the heart.
I believe that the New Testament is also divinely inspired by God, so I choose to follow all the commandments in it, as well. I believe that writers of the New Testament were writing with the Holy Spirit, and the gospels ARE the words of God's own Son. I will definitely try to go what he says.
Christians have all kinds of different reasons for not following Torah - it's different for everyone.
When people talk about being free from the law, I think they mostly take this from Galatians 3. We are free from the curse of the law - there's no way we can follow all of the laws, but we are freed from punishment of sinning because Jesus took it himself on the cross. I think people misinterpret the curse that comes from breaking the law to mean that the law itself was a curse.... Read More
I don't know, though - I need to worry about myself for now. Discussions are good and I will always stand for my beliefs, but I don't want to condemn anyone. Only God knows the heart.
I believe that the New Testament is also divinely inspired by God, so I choose to follow all the commandments in it, as well. I believe that writers of the New Testament were writing with the Holy Spirit, and the gospels ARE the words of God's own Son. I will definitely try to go what he says.
October 29 at 3:09pm
Kelsey R Pearce
There is a lot of effort being displayed in this debate. I see peole putting their heart, soul, and sadly their witness on the line to refine fellow Christians convictions from the Holy Spirit. I think Jeff had it right when he alluded to politics.
Would Jesus be a part of this somewhat acrimonious debate?
There are definately astude minds designing well composed arguments. It's amazing that so many of my friends have this kind of passion for God, heck I cracked my Bible more than once and in turn learned a lot just trying to keep up. Check yourselves though! Is this just a drummed up faith pageant? Let's utilize this type of zeal in our ministry, let's focus this type of attention towards loving God and loving the unlovable! This whole debate hangs on that alone. ... Read More
Take care, and God bless!
Would Jesus be a part of this somewhat acrimonious debate?
There are definately astude minds designing well composed arguments. It's amazing that so many of my friends have this kind of passion for God, heck I cracked my Bible more than once and in turn learned a lot just trying to keep up. Check yourselves though! Is this just a drummed up faith pageant? Let's utilize this type of zeal in our ministry, let's focus this type of attention towards loving God and loving the unlovable! This whole debate hangs on that alone. ... Read More
Take care, and God bless!
October 29 at 3:42pm
Oatmeal Joy
1. People may disregard Torah for different reasons. It may be different for everyone. But that doesn't matter if they're wrong. If they're wrong then those different reasons are only excuses. It would only matter if there were to be truth behind what they say. Their argument doesn't matter if they're wrong. If God wants us to Torah then who to argue? If we are to Torah then we are to Torah. There are no ifs or buts about it. If we must then we must.
Emphasize on Torah?
2. Should we emphasize on following the commandments in the Torah, the first five Moses books? What about Christians who want to emphasize on the first four gospels in the New Testament? Should there be an emphasis on the commandments found in the New Testament? Or should we clearly put our priorities on the commandments found in the Torah? I was looking for a website that would talk about that. That would talk about our need to emphasize on following the commandments from just the Torah, the first five books.... Read More
Torah?
First five?
But should we emphasize on the first five?
Over the first four of the new?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_law_in_Christianity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersessionism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_Theology
Emphasize on Torah?
2. Should we emphasize on following the commandments in the Torah, the first five Moses books? What about Christians who want to emphasize on the first four gospels in the New Testament? Should there be an emphasis on the commandments found in the New Testament? Or should we clearly put our priorities on the commandments found in the Torah? I was looking for a website that would talk about that. That would talk about our need to emphasize on following the commandments from just the Torah, the first five books.... Read More
Torah?
First five?
But should we emphasize on the first five?
Over the first four of the new?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wi
October 29 at 5:44pm
Emily Ward
Amen, Kelsey! God forbid we become "facebook Christians" and don't "live a life worthy of the calling." (Eph. 4:1). Too often people get caught up in debates and "being right" without realizing living it out is more important.
Joey, Look at John 1 - the word become flesh (v. 14), the Torah came in the form of a man, Jesus. I view both the Torah and the gospels as equally important. They are from the same God and they are of the same Spirit. One came first, so the second did build upon it. But they complement one another, and I don't think one should be viewed without the other.
John 1:17-18 says, "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known." A lot of people take this to mean that the law and Moses are opposite of grace, truth, and Jesus Christ. But if you look at the context, John is saying that God has made himself known through the law of Moses as well as the grace and truth that came through Jesus Christ.... Read More
2 Corinthians 3:12-18 talks about a veil. That veil is in place when we read the Torah without Messiah. When the veil is taken away, we can study Torah with freedom.
Joey, Look at John 1 - the word become flesh (v. 14), the Torah came in the form of a man, Jesus. I view both the Torah and the gospels as equally important. They are from the same God and they are of the same Spirit. One came first, so the second did build upon it. But they complement one another, and I don't think one should be viewed without the other.
John 1:17-18 says, "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known." A lot of people take this to mean that the law and Moses are opposite of grace, truth, and Jesus Christ. But if you look at the context, John is saying that God has made himself known through the law of Moses as well as the grace and truth that came through Jesus Christ.... Read More
2 Corinthians 3:12-18 talks about a veil. That veil is in place when we read the Torah without Messiah. When the veil is taken away, we can study Torah with freedom.
October 29 at 9:11pm
Jeffrey Walters
there sure is a lot of talk about disregard for the torah, and such like that.
for clarification, the old testament is absolutely essential. it irrefutably sheds light on everything we learn in the new testament. there just seems to be a difference in our observation of the purpose of the torah, and it's 'identity'. some of these observations claim that i am sinning because i eat pork.
for clarification, the old testament is absolutely essential. it irrefutably sheds light on everything we learn in the new testament. there just seems to be a difference in our observation of the purpose of the torah, and it's 'identity'. some of these observations claim that i am sinning because i eat pork.
October 29 at 10:07pm
David Sheppard
I agree Jeff, and as surprising as this may sound coming from me I do not think that following all the commands is essential. It's impossible to do that (Rom 3:23). But thanks to God's mercy he forgives where we can't live up his standard.
The claim that is made that you are sinning because you eat pork is not made by us, it's made by the book of 1John.
1John 3:4 "Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness." ... Read More
Everyone who disobeys one of Gods commands sins. God commanded not to eat pork. All it really comes down to is whether you're okay with sinning or not. But you can't say that eating pork is not a sin when it says so clearly that that's what sin is.
The claim that is made that you are sinning because you eat pork is not made by us, it's made by the book of 1John.
1John 3:4 "Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness." ... Read More
Everyone who disobeys one of Gods commands sins. God commanded not to eat pork. All it really comes down to is whether you're okay with sinning or not. But you can't say that eating pork is not a sin when it says so clearly that that's what sin is.
October 30 at 11:11am
Oatmeal Joy
Pork?
Pork = bad?
1. Pork = bad for just the Jewish nation? Is pork only sin to Israel, God's Chosen People?... Read More
2. Pork = bad for all humanity? Is pork not bad for everybody? Is pork even healthy? G-d wants us to be healthy?
3. Pork = bad for all humanity because we should all be Jews? We should all be following Torah?
4. Pork = bad for all humanity because we are all Jews, we are all God's Special People, His Ammi? We should want to follow His Torah no matter what because the Torah is for us to follow?
Pork = bad?
1. Pork = bad for just the Jewish nation? Is pork only sin to Israel, God's Chosen People?... Read More
2. Pork = bad for all humanity? Is pork not bad for everybody? Is pork even healthy? G-d wants us to be healthy?
3. Pork = bad for all humanity because we should all be Jews? We should all be following Torah?
4. Pork = bad for all humanity because we are all Jews, we are all God's Special People, His Ammi? We should want to follow His Torah no matter what because the Torah is for us to follow?
October 30 at 3:06pm
Rhonda Elmatti
Joey, what's with "G-d"? Just curious.
October 30 at 5:47pm
Oatmeal Joy
G-d = God. "G-d" says we shouldn't utter Yahweh's exact name for we are not worthy to utter the same exact name of J-s-s (Jesus). But I am still not sure about pork. Either Jews were told not to eat pork or we were all told not to eat pork. Tom, Kelsey said what was obvious. We all already knew that. Kelsey came in and became the good guy. I am jealous of Kelsey. I wish I could have been Kelsey. Hop into a conversation and say that we should first be a light to this world. And I am not being sarcastic when I say this. I am obviously here to be the bad guy. Ronnie is trying his best to look as if he knows what he is talking about. I am doing my best to pretend that I am clueless and it has worked. David is only pretending to agree with Jeff. David, are we to only try "To keep the Torah?" David, if we are to only try then there would be no need for this whole debate. My Christian friends already believe in keeping the Torah. That does not mean that they are Messianic Jews or Rabbinic Jews or Karaite Jews, or something in between. Earlier, I asked if I should be a Jew. But I only asked because I want you to see something. I want you to see that there is a problem that you are not looking at. One of the biggest problem that I see is this Christianity movement. Since the founding of the church movement, martyrs have died for Christianity, not for Judaism. I understand that Israel has been persecuted. But have Jews died for their faith in the same way that Christians have died for Jesus? I have seen movies about the Holocaust. But the difference between Judaism and Christianity is like the difference between apples and oranges. The concept of Christianity is founded on faith (Hebrews 11). Abraham was given that concept before Moses was given the law. The law was given to Israel. However, faith was given to Abraham, before that. I would love to say more about this but there is a deeper issue that must first be addressed.
How we are to follow the Torah really depends on our outlook to faith. Ronnie, please do not delete this comment. Everything starts with salvation. We first have to see where we were before we can know where we are going. We are all born in sin. We are born spiritually dead. Most Christians do not believe this at its deepest levels. I really wished that you could see what I see. I believe in following the Torah. But I believe in a different way of following the Torah. I just wished I had time to explain myself. I spend most of my time asking questions because that is how I think. I learn through questions. If there is anybody out there who is just like me then they will see where I am coming from. If you can relate with me then please let me know somehow, someday, please, I need to know. I ask questions because I want to challenge you. Because I really want to show you something. If you were thankful for my contribution, to this discussion, then just let me know someday. Blake likes what I say. But you really have to see what I am trying to say. I actually support Jeffrey Walter.
Ronald Gilden, the Torah cannot be followed in the same exact way as it was followed back when they had a temple. That is why I kept on saying "HOW" are we to keep Torah? HOW? Through application. That is how. I believe in a different "HOW" in following Torah then Ronnie. And I wish that I could tell you more about this. I wish that you could see what I see. That is why I kept on saying HOW do we Torah? There is a reason for why I write or say what I say. And there is a how to the Torah. But the Torah was written back then. Torah was written for us. But still, there is a gap between Torah and us. Torah was written in a different time period, in a different geographical area, in a different cultural setting, and in a different dispensation. ... Read More
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism
Certain Bible books were even written in different literature styles. Some were more dominant on history. Revelation, however, has a lot of allegories or word pictures.
Jeffrey Walters believes in application. That is just a different way in following the Torah. The Torah contains principles. We can take those principles and apply them to our specific programs that we are in. We can still practically follow the Torah, physically, literally, spiritually, totally. But we can only do so through application.
Emily Ward, and many of you have, so many times, have alluded to application. But there is a difference between following Torah through application and following Torah directly, word by word, point blank. That is why I kept on saying "point blank." If we were to actually follow Torah point blank then we would still have to stone people who dishonored or disobeyed their parents. The principle is that we are to discipline our children. That is why Proverbs is more easier to understand because it speaks through timeless principles. Proverbs are full of universal wisdom that are more easier understood and therefore better applied to our own world, now, right now, now, today, where we are. And the Torah is universal, it is timeless, but not directly, not always, not exactly. The Torah can be followed because God made it that way. The principles are the same. But the programs are different. We cannot be blind to where we are right now. We are not living in the days of the Bible. Many things are different. I understand that the principles are the same. Certain things are pretty much still the same. But not everything is still the same. We have to be careful about all of this. You have to see this. If you get this wrong. If you get "application" wrong then it could cost you your life.
Ronald Gilden, my only problem is in the how or even in the why. That is why I wrote so much into this discussion. We can follow Torah but we should do so through application. I wished that I had the time to explain this farther. Application is so crucial. But if the Bible was written to us then there would be no need for application. I have already said this, too, but you would have to see why I say this. You have to see why I am not a Jew. That is why I asked "Should I be a Jew?" I wish I could tell you why I am not a Jew. I wished that I had time to tell you about that. I wish I could just ask more questions. Sometimes, my questions do not get answered. And that hurts. But I understand. And many of you have answered many of my questions. Big thanks for that. Actually, the most important questions have already been asked and if I ever see you in real life I will still have to ask each and every one of you, "How do you Torah?" That is the most important question. The question roots from our understanding of salvation. Salvation is usually misunderstood, too. And I would have to tell you more about all of this, later.
How we are to follow the Torah really depends on our outlook to faith. Ronnie, please do not delete this comment. Everything starts with salvation. We first have to see where we were before we can know where we are going. We are all born in sin. We are born spiritually dead. Most Christians do not believe this at its deepest levels. I really wished that you could see what I see. I believe in following the Torah. But I believe in a different way of following the Torah. I just wished I had time to explain myself. I spend most of my time asking questions because that is how I think. I learn through questions. If there is anybody out there who is just like me then they will see where I am coming from. If you can relate with me then please let me know somehow, someday, please, I need to know. I ask questions because I want to challenge you. Because I really want to show you something. If you were thankful for my contribution, to this discussion, then just let me know someday. Blake likes what I say. But you really have to see what I am trying to say. I actually support Jeffrey Walter.
Ronald Gilden, the Torah cannot be followed in the same exact way as it was followed back when they had a temple. That is why I kept on saying "HOW" are we to keep Torah? HOW? Through application. That is how. I believe in a different "HOW" in following Torah then Ronnie. And I wish that I could tell you more about this. I wish that you could see what I see. That is why I kept on saying HOW do we Torah? There is a reason for why I write or say what I say. And there is a how to the Torah. But the Torah was written back then. Torah was written for us. But still, there is a gap between Torah and us. Torah was written in a different time period, in a different geographical area, in a different cultural setting, and in a different dispensation. ... Read More
http://en.wikipedia.org/wi
Certain Bible books were even written in different literature styles. Some were more dominant on history. Revelation, however, has a lot of allegories or word pictures.
Jeffrey Walters believes in application. That is just a different way in following the Torah. The Torah contains principles. We can take those principles and apply them to our specific programs that we are in. We can still practically follow the Torah, physically, literally, spiritually, totally. But we can only do so through application.
Emily Ward, and many of you have, so many times, have alluded to application. But there is a difference between following Torah through application and following Torah directly, word by word, point blank. That is why I kept on saying "point blank." If we were to actually follow Torah point blank then we would still have to stone people who dishonored or disobeyed their parents. The principle is that we are to discipline our children. That is why Proverbs is more easier to understand because it speaks through timeless principles. Proverbs are full of universal wisdom that are more easier understood and therefore better applied to our own world, now, right now, now, today, where we are. And the Torah is universal, it is timeless, but not directly, not always, not exactly. The Torah can be followed because God made it that way. The principles are the same. But the programs are different. We cannot be blind to where we are right now. We are not living in the days of the Bible. Many things are different. I understand that the principles are the same. Certain things are pretty much still the same. But not everything is still the same. We have to be careful about all of this. You have to see this. If you get this wrong. If you get "application" wrong then it could cost you your life.
Ronald Gilden, my only problem is in the how or even in the why. That is why I wrote so much into this discussion. We can follow Torah but we should do so through application. I wished that I had the time to explain this farther. Application is so crucial. But if the Bible was written to us then there would be no need for application. I have already said this, too, but you would have to see why I say this. You have to see why I am not a Jew. That is why I asked "Should I be a Jew?" I wish I could tell you why I am not a Jew. I wished that I had time to tell you about that. I wish I could just ask more questions. Sometimes, my questions do not get answered. And that hurts. But I understand. And many of you have answered many of my questions. Big thanks for that. Actually, the most important questions have already been asked and if I ever see you in real life I will still have to ask each and every one of you, "How do you Torah?" That is the most important question. The question roots from our understanding of salvation. Salvation is usually misunderstood, too. And I would have to tell you more about all of this, later.
October 31 at 3:46pm
David Sheppard
God does not say that we are to never say his name. This is a tradition (or "fence" as we often refer to them as) that the Rabbis came up with. God is not against us using his name, he is simply against us using it in vain. Even if God did say that we are to not say his name, it doesn't matter, because we don't know his true name, and it certainly isn't "God". Kinda the same thing for Jesus, scripture doesn't say we aren't supposed to say it.
"Ronnie is trying his best to look as if he knows that he's talking about", I can do nothing but laugh at this.
"PRETEND that you're clueless" again, laughing. ... Read More
And how am I "pretending to agree with Jeff". I assure you, I'm not pretending on anything that I've said. And I am certainly not pretending to agree with Jeff. Nothing against him or anything, I just don't agree with some of his view points in general. There is no pretending here.
Yes, we are to try to keep Torah. And no, don't say your Christian friends believe in keeping Torah because they don't. The common Christian faith does not believe that the Old Testament laws should be followed today. That's fact.
As for Jewish martyrs, yes, they have died for there faith the same way the Christians have died for theirs. I'm quite frankly shocked that you even said that. I assume that you haven't read much of the Old Testament because there are several cases there, and in history, where the Jews have been martyred for their faith.
As for faith, yet again I completely disagree with you. Judaism was founded on faith, not the law. However, I'd like to bring something to your attention that you may not know about, the law runs much deeper than when Moshe received the Torah from God. The laws in the Law have been around forever! We can see evidence of this in several places, one being in the story of Noah.
As for the rest of your post, I'm not going to lie, I did't read it. And have no intention to. I think I've said all that have to say Joey. Until the next time… :)
"Ronnie is trying his best to look as if he knows that he's talking about", I can do nothing but laugh at this.
"PRETEND that you're clueless" again, laughing. ... Read More
And how am I "pretending to agree with Jeff". I assure you, I'm not pretending on anything that I've said. And I am certainly not pretending to agree with Jeff. Nothing against him or anything, I just don't agree with some of his view points in general. There is no pretending here.
Yes, we are to try to keep Torah. And no, don't say your Christian friends believe in keeping Torah because they don't. The common Christian faith does not believe that the Old Testament laws should be followed today. That's fact.
As for Jewish martyrs, yes, they have died for there faith the same way the Christians have died for theirs. I'm quite frankly shocked that you even said that. I assume that you haven't read much of the Old Testament because there are several cases there, and in history, where the Jews have been martyred for their faith.
As for faith, yet again I completely disagree with you. Judaism was founded on faith, not the law. However, I'd like to bring something to your attention that you may not know about, the law runs much deeper than when Moshe received the Torah from God. The laws in the Law have been around forever! We can see evidence of this in several places, one being in the story of Noah.
As for the rest of your post, I'm not going to lie, I did't read it. And have no intention to. I think I've said all that have to say Joey. Until the next time… :)
October 31 at 4:54pm
Jeffrey Walters
the common christian faith doesn't believe in following the law? sounds like a misconstrued conception of what is really going on. you must not understand principle.
and for joey's defense, i appreciated his 'entire' last post, because i read every word.
david, if you want to know the common christian outlook on the law, actually study the common christian outlook on the law. that means, don't settle for this Sally preacher, or that tel-evangalist, but look harder.
and for joey's defense, i appreciated his 'entire' last post, because i read every word.
david, if you want to know the common christian outlook on the law, actually study the common christian outlook on the law. that means, don't settle for this Sally preacher, or that tel-evangalist, but look harder.
October 31 at 5:12pm
Oatmeal Joy
David Sheppard, you are right about the Torah. Torah was with Noah. But Torah was in a different form, then. Torah was mostly within oral tradition. Torah has always been the same. Cheri Gilden knows that the Torah is eternal. Just scroll back up to see Cheri's last comment on the Torah. Jeffrey Walters said it right when he said "But look harder." I will have to say that again. And David, I will not lie, however, I actually do read everything you write on this post. But you assume that I do not know what I am talking about. David, there is a problem even with just your last comment. I wish I could show you this. On one hand you said that there is a difference between Israel and the church. You said that my Christian friends do not follow Torah. You are right, they do not follow Torah in the exact same way that you do. Meaning that either we got Torah right or you got Torah right. We cannot both be right about the HOW of Torah. Again, I have to say HOW (as in "HOW do we Torah?"). You have to see why I say HOW. I say HOW for a reason. And I am going to say this again. I am even going to get a camcorder and document this whole debate. I will show you all the HOW! But that is for a later date. David, some of my Salvationist friends understand Torah. However, when I say "My Christian friends," I'm referring to my most favorite Christian friends, many being Bible college graduates, Bible scholars, Bible-believing pastors or missionaries, Bible following Jesus followers. David, my friends are Torah followers. My Christians friends are Revolution Hawaii like zealots. They are missionaries. They are out with the sick and dying! That is what a Christian is to me. Christians do follow the Torah. To me, that is the Torah. To me, Torah is giving. Torah is Jesus. Torah is full of grace. To me, Christians are world savers! Life savers! I am not talking about the lazy Christians! Sometimes, I am a lazy Christian, even. I am talking about Torah followers! Jesus is the Torah. Jesus is the Word. Jesus is the Bible. All 66 Books. All 613 Mizvots. David, you have to see this. You have to see this to believe it. Ronald Gilden, you have to see this, too. Come with me. Fly with me. Hear me roar. Let me show you what I mean. I have yet to show you the problem with your Torah. There is suppose to be only one Torah. There should not be a problem with your Torah. Your Torah should be my Torah. My Torah should be your Torah.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Israel-church.html
David Sheppard, on one hand, you said that there is a difference between HOW I do Torah and HOW you do Torah.... Read More
David Sheppard, but on the other hand, you said, and I quote, "They (Jews) have died for there faith the same way the Christians have died for theirs." David, on the first hand, you say that there is a difference between the church and the Torah followers. But on this second hand, right here, you have said, as seen in this last quote of yours, that Jews have died in the same exact way as Christians have. David, you say that Torah followers have died for the same exact ways, for the same exact reasons, for the same exact Torah, for the same exact Bible as Christians do. David, first you say that there is a difference. But then, on this second hand, you say, "Oh no, it's the same, Jews and Christians are dying for the same God" David, true, they are both dying for God. But you have to see something. You have to see that there is a difference. I want to tell you why there is a difference. Christianity is not a mistake. It was a mystery before Jesus was born. Even the Old Testament prophets died for the coming Messiah. Abraham was Jewish and Christian. The prophets were also Christian. They believed in Christ. Christian means Christ follower. Christian means little Christ saints. Adam was Christian. Noah was Christian. David was Christian. Paul was Christian. People died for Christ as Christians. When a Jew dies, the are dying in the name of our Yahweh. There is more that must be said about this.
David, yes, we can utter God's name. You are right about that. We do not know God's exact name. Nobody knows this, I don't think, not yet. But someday, every knee will bow to this name. Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. And that is the definition to what a Christian is. It is going to happen. We are not suppose to curse the name of Jesus. We are to bring blessings through that name.
David, you do not want to be Christian. You want to follow Christ. David, but you do not want to be labeled as a lazy Christians. When I say "My Christian friends," I am not talking about those lazy Christians who ignore the Old Testament, who do not take it into account, who do not apply the whole Bible into their daily lives. My Christians friends are not the ones wearing Jesus as a mask. My most favorite Christian friends are not your enemies. David, you have good reason to not eat pork. You have good reason in doing the most good. God told Israel not to do certain things. We should take that into account. That is called application. Eating pork is still bad. We were not told to eat pork but we were told to take care of our bodies. We were told to be a witness. But if we want to be healthy then we should not eat pork. But it is not because you are Jewish or something like that. You may be Jewish in nationality. You may be Jewish in blood. You can move to Israel. You can be Jewish. But Judaism is not a religion. Originally, Judaism was never meant to be a religion. I know that it is a religion but it must not be. Israel is a nation. Israel is a nation that was build under God similar to how the United States of America was build under God. Israel was founded on God. Israel is a nation. You can be an Israeli. But you are also Christian.
David Sheppard, admit it. David, you are Christian, whether you like it or not. If you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins then you are Christian. I understand if you do not want to associate with the pathetic non-Bible-observing Christians out there. Not even I want to associate with them. Christianity has be redefined to mean all shorts of things. But Christianity was never meant to be separated from the Torah. I would rather jump off this world than be a lazy Christian. But I am still Christian. Ronald Gilden is Christian, whether he likes it or not. I am in this world but not off this world. I do not want to be related to lazy people who say they have a license to sin. They say that they can sin so that grace may abound (Romans 6). But God forbid that. Me genoita. Because we are to really live as Jesus lives.
David, no doubt, the Torah is for us. David, no doubt, we are to follow it (but HOW?). But we do not have a temple. We don't need animal sacrifices because Jesus is that sacrifice. I really do not want to stone people (but we should discipline or chastise people). I want to eat kosher because I am Christian and not because I am Jew. I want to eat Kosher out of love but not because I am Jew. I want to apply the Torah to us. If not then trick or treat. We should really see that we are all meant to be Christians. I am for real. I do not lie. If you are reading this then please let me know. I still love Israel and they are God's chosen. We are part of God's plan, too. But there is still a difference. and if we want to know how to live then we better, like Jeff said, dig harder to see the HOW!
http://www.gotquestions.or
David Sheppard, on one hand, you said that there is a difference between HOW I do Torah and HOW you do Torah.... Read More
David Sheppard, but on the other hand, you said, and I quote, "They (Jews) have died for there faith the same way the Christians have died for theirs." David, on the first hand, you say that there is a difference between the church and the Torah followers. But on this second hand, right here, you have said, as seen in this last quote of yours, that Jews have died in the same exact way as Christians have. David, you say that Torah followers have died for the same exact ways, for the same exact reasons, for the same exact Torah, for the same exact Bible as Christians do. David, first you say that there is a difference. But then, on this second hand, you say, "Oh no, it's the same, Jews and Christians are dying for the same God" David, true, they are both dying for God. But you have to see something. You have to see that there is a difference. I want to tell you why there is a difference. Christianity is not a mistake. It was a mystery before Jesus was born. Even the Old Testament prophets died for the coming Messiah. Abraham was Jewish and Christian. The prophets were also Christian. They believed in Christ. Christian means Christ follower. Christian means little Christ saints. Adam was Christian. Noah was Christian. David was Christian. Paul was Christian. People died for Christ as Christians. When a Jew dies, the are dying in the name of our Yahweh. There is more that must be said about this.
David, yes, we can utter God's name. You are right about that. We do not know God's exact name. Nobody knows this, I don't think, not yet. But someday, every knee will bow to this name. Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. And that is the definition to what a Christian is. It is going to happen. We are not suppose to curse the name of Jesus. We are to bring blessings through that name.
David, you do not want to be Christian. You want to follow Christ. David, but you do not want to be labeled as a lazy Christians. When I say "My Christian friends," I am not talking about those lazy Christians who ignore the Old Testament, who do not take it into account, who do not apply the whole Bible into their daily lives. My Christians friends are not the ones wearing Jesus as a mask. My most favorite Christian friends are not your enemies. David, you have good reason to not eat pork. You have good reason in doing the most good. God told Israel not to do certain things. We should take that into account. That is called application. Eating pork is still bad. We were not told to eat pork but we were told to take care of our bodies. We were told to be a witness. But if we want to be healthy then we should not eat pork. But it is not because you are Jewish or something like that. You may be Jewish in nationality. You may be Jewish in blood. You can move to Israel. You can be Jewish. But Judaism is not a religion. Originally, Judaism was never meant to be a religion. I know that it is a religion but it must not be. Israel is a nation. Israel is a nation that was build under God similar to how the United States of America was build under God. Israel was founded on God. Israel is a nation. You can be an Israeli. But you are also Christian.
David Sheppard, admit it. David, you are Christian, whether you like it or not. If you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins then you are Christian. I understand if you do not want to associate with the pathetic non-Bible-observing Christians out there. Not even I want to associate with them. Christianity has be redefined to mean all shorts of things. But Christianity was never meant to be separated from the Torah. I would rather jump off this world than be a lazy Christian. But I am still Christian. Ronald Gilden is Christian, whether he likes it or not. I am in this world but not off this world. I do not want to be related to lazy people who say they have a license to sin. They say that they can sin so that grace may abound (Romans 6). But God forbid that. Me genoita. Because we are to really live as Jesus lives.
David, no doubt, the Torah is for us. David, no doubt, we are to follow it (but HOW?). But we do not have a temple. We don't need animal sacrifices because Jesus is that sacrifice. I really do not want to stone people (but we should discipline or chastise people). I want to eat kosher because I am Christian and not because I am Jew. I want to eat Kosher out of love but not because I am Jew. I want to apply the Torah to us. If not then trick or treat. We should really see that we are all meant to be Christians. I am for real. I do not lie. If you are reading this then please let me know. I still love Israel and they are God's chosen. We are part of God's plan, too. But there is still a difference. and if we want to know how to live then we better, like Jeff said, dig harder to see the HOW!
October 31 at 6:35pm
Martha Sheppard
To you, to you, to you - this matters not.
What is Torah - to God?
…”You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself’ “On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 22:37 - 40... Read More
And how do we show that we love God?
1John 5:2-3 says “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome."
What do you do with verses like this?
You can't say he is talking about New Testament law because the New Testament wasn't written then. It was a jewish man speaking to Jewish men who followed the JEWISH religion and believed in their Jewish messiah (Jesus - or Yeshua). They would have immediately linked the phrase "his commandments" to Torah.
So when did you get to be the one who says how to do it . . .
Be careful, my friend. Solomon spoke to us about this very thing in Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death."
What is Torah - to God?
…”You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself’ “On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 22:37 - 40... Read More
And how do we show that we love God?
1John 5:2-3 says “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome."
What do you do with verses like this?
You can't say he is talking about New Testament law because the New Testament wasn't written then. It was a jewish man speaking to Jewish men who followed the JEWISH religion and believed in their Jewish messiah (Jesus - or Yeshua). They would have immediately linked the phrase "his commandments" to Torah.
So when did you get to be the one who says how to do it . . .
Be careful, my friend. Solomon spoke to us about this very thing in Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death."
October 31 at 6:50pm
Martha Sheppard
"the common christian faith doesn't believe in following the law? sounds like a misconstrued conception of what is really going on. you must not understand principle."
Nope - sounds pretty much like what the common christian faith teaches to me . . .
not sure what sally preachers you think David is listening to it - you must not know his dad . . . . He is a tough one to argue scripture with because he knows it so well . . .and believe me, his parents have researched this EVERY possible angle for 20 years now . . ... Read More
and as far as searching things out . .you don't have to look far. This is not something that only a few heretic people are beginning to understand - Hebraic Roots is being taught in EVERY church and denomination - and it is very indicative of the end times -
18 Again the word of the LORD Almighty came to me. 19 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "The fasts of the fourth, fifth, seventh and tenth months will become joyful and glad occasions and happy festivals for Judah. Therefore love truth and peace."
20 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, 21 and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, 'Let us go at once to entreat the LORD and seek the LORD Almighty. I myself am going.' 22 And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the LORD Almighty and to entreat him."
23 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.' "
It's just a fulfillment of prophecy - people will begin returning to the ways of the Messiah before he comes again.
Nope - sounds pretty much like what the common christian faith teaches to me . . .
not sure what sally preachers you think David is listening to it - you must not know his dad . . . . He is a tough one to argue scripture with because he knows it so well . . .and believe me, his parents have researched this EVERY possible angle for 20 years now . . ... Read More
and as far as searching things out . .you don't have to look far. This is not something that only a few heretic people are beginning to understand - Hebraic Roots is being taught in EVERY church and denomination - and it is very indicative of the end times -
18 Again the word of the LORD Almighty came to me. 19 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "The fasts of the fourth, fifth, seventh and tenth months will become joyful and glad occasions and happy festivals for Judah. Therefore love truth and peace."
20 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, 21 and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, 'Let us go at once to entreat the LORD and seek the LORD Almighty. I myself am going.' 22 And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the LORD Almighty and to entreat him."
23 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.' "
It's just a fulfillment of prophecy - people will begin returning to the ways of the Messiah before he comes again.
October 31 at 6:59pm
Oatmeal Joy
Martha, you are right, that first epistle of John was writing about Old Testament law. Martha, that does not mean that there is no New Testament law. Martha, John is trying to say that it starts with the Old Testament. Martha, you are right, we cannot live life without the Old Testament. That is what God thinks. But then again, I only think that. Martha, when I say "I think this or I believe that," it is because I am not perfect. I know that it is all about God. Martha, I know it matters not what I think. Martha, I know it only matters what God wants. But I have to be careful to think that I know for sure what God says. Martha, I know you know the Bible. Ronald, I know you know the Bible. It does not matter who you are. We can all quote the Bible. We can quote Torah. We can throw scriptures up at each other. But I will still choose to say "I think this." You can quote the Bible but you may not know what it means exactly. Dear everybody, be careful when quoting scripture. You can say "Thus said the Lord" and you can say that this is what God says but you might just be wrong. I might just be wrong. The Bible is not always exactly totally black and white. We may think it is but buyers beware. Sometimes, unfortunately, I just say, "Thus said the Lord." And I do that all the time because I am Joey Arnold. And Joey Arnold thinks he has it right. But it is a bad habit to just say that God wants this or that. Scripture is clear. But it is still our interpretation. We are still not perfect. We can pray. We can try. We can get close to the truth. But we may not always get to it, point blank. But we still have to be careful.
Martha, please do not assume that I am against the Torah. I am not against you or the Torah. Martha, yes, the rapture is coming, you are right. Israel is part of God's will. The temple will be build really soon. Possibly in less than a hundred years, or in the next three years. I know they are getting the materials ready for it. I know they have the different precious stones and metals for the temple. The Bible was specifically purposed for Israel. Martha, no doubt, 1948 was a very special year. I am not against Israel. Since the dawn of time, people have tried destroying Israel. But they have also been attacking the church. The church and Israel are two different clubs working for the same Jesus. You really have to see that. Martha, you may be Jewish but you are also Christian. Martha, I am not saying that you are Catholic or Baptist or a Salvationist or even related to Jeff's Sally Preacher example. But you follow Yeshua. Christianity roots from Judaism. But then again, Judaism actually roots from Christianity. Few would ever admit that. Christ existed before Israel did. Israel was born Jacob until Jacob wrestle with Christ or just an angel of the LORD. Later, Jacob became Israel. Then came Israel as a nation. But Christ was still in existence. The concept of faith is closely connected with Christianity and with Christ. David Sheppard, you are right, Judaism has faith in it, of course, but that does not mean jack. It actually means a lot. But faith is still a closer cousin to Christianity. Israel first needed the law. The law was their training wheel. The law was their measuring tape. The law was their compass. Actually, we are all still in need of this law. The law gives us morals. The law gives us a sneak preview to the will of God. But we are also in need of faith. We are also in need of spirit and application. In other words, we are in need of some TORAH HOWNESS! I am hungry for some how burgers!
Martha, you are right, Christianity comes from Israel. But then again, Israel comes from Christ. In other words, Judaism comes from Christianity. I have to say that. Tom, I hope I'm not getting a negative tone from that comment. Martha, I am not against the Torah. I am in love with those feasts. But you should really reconsider your views. You should really take in account the Holy Spirit. The spirit kind of makes things different in this dispensation. Martha, yo are right, another dispensation is coming. Israel is coming back. But until then, just right now, we are in the age of grace. We are in the age of the Holy Spirit. In the Old Testament, they only had bits and pieces of the Holy Ghost. Certain prophets or priests, or certain people, would get anointed, they would get the presence of the Lord. But now that the Spirit takes permanent resident inside a believer, that changes things. Martha, there are Jews and there are Christians. But then again, Jews are Christians. And I really want to explain that one to you. ... Read More
Tom, I never said that I knew everything. Tom, you are looking at the negativities. You are in control of what you are looking at. You should not take advantage of words like "Zealots." They at least were hungry for what they believe in. I am not happy about those zealot or with those horrible things that they did. You can say that I used a bad example. I could have said Revolution Hawaii pirates or Jedi Masters or superheroes or fairy. But I choice the word Zealot. Tom, you may not know me. Tom, you should see that I am a reporter. I am trying to paint a picture. Tom, I have this ability to connect the dots. I connected Revolution Hawaii with zealots because they are both doing something. I like using words that you can see. I believe Christians are to be rebels against Satan. That word makes me think of the Rebel Alliance from those Star Wars trilogies. I have a huge imagination. I use words to paint a picture. Tom, feel free to find faults in my words. Just that one word, "Zealots," is a good example of how I can be very easily misunderstood. The world is full of this. At least we are talking about it. It would be worse if we were to just keep all of this to ourselves. You at least brought that to my attention. That actually helps me. You really have to believe me when I say that. If you have a problem with me then you should let me know. I think you guys tell me already. I think that is good. I also think that it is good to explain myself. There is a whole lot more explaining to be done. But you will all have the choice to accept what I am about to say or reject it. I will either write more someday or I will buy a camcorder. I think I should stop writing because my face is a whole lot more hotter than my words are. You can better interpret what I say through the art of cinema. If you want me to stop writing then please tell me. Some of you have already told me to shut up already and I understand. And if you really want to watch my Youtube videos, instead, then just please let me know or else I may never do it or worse..... I have a lot to say and we have little time left here on earth. But nevertheless, it is still a choice. It is always your choice. You can always take my words in a negative tone or you can choose to look for the positive optimistic outlook to what I am going to say next.
Dear everybody, I am going to be on YouTube. And you will hear more from me about that. I will tell you all more later about what I am talking about, I swear. You may look at me in a negative way, Tom, but you do so with your eyes, not with mine.
Martha, please do not assume that I am against the Torah. I am not against you or the Torah. Martha, yes, the rapture is coming, you are right. Israel is part of God's will. The temple will be build really soon. Possibly in less than a hundred years, or in the next three years. I know they are getting the materials ready for it. I know they have the different precious stones and metals for the temple. The Bible was specifically purposed for Israel. Martha, no doubt, 1948 was a very special year. I am not against Israel. Since the dawn of time, people have tried destroying Israel. But they have also been attacking the church. The church and Israel are two different clubs working for the same Jesus. You really have to see that. Martha, you may be Jewish but you are also Christian. Martha, I am not saying that you are Catholic or Baptist or a Salvationist or even related to Jeff's Sally Preacher example. But you follow Yeshua. Christianity roots from Judaism. But then again, Judaism actually roots from Christianity. Few would ever admit that. Christ existed before Israel did. Israel was born Jacob until Jacob wrestle with Christ or just an angel of the LORD. Later, Jacob became Israel. Then came Israel as a nation. But Christ was still in existence. The concept of faith is closely connected with Christianity and with Christ. David Sheppard, you are right, Judaism has faith in it, of course, but that does not mean jack. It actually means a lot. But faith is still a closer cousin to Christianity. Israel first needed the law. The law was their training wheel. The law was their measuring tape. The law was their compass. Actually, we are all still in need of this law. The law gives us morals. The law gives us a sneak preview to the will of God. But we are also in need of faith. We are also in need of spirit and application. In other words, we are in need of some TORAH HOWNESS! I am hungry for some how burgers!
Martha, you are right, Christianity comes from Israel. But then again, Israel comes from Christ. In other words, Judaism comes from Christianity. I have to say that. Tom, I hope I'm not getting a negative tone from that comment. Martha, I am not against the Torah. I am in love with those feasts. But you should really reconsider your views. You should really take in account the Holy Spirit. The spirit kind of makes things different in this dispensation. Martha, yo are right, another dispensation is coming. Israel is coming back. But until then, just right now, we are in the age of grace. We are in the age of the Holy Spirit. In the Old Testament, they only had bits and pieces of the Holy Ghost. Certain prophets or priests, or certain people, would get anointed, they would get the presence of the Lord. But now that the Spirit takes permanent resident inside a believer, that changes things. Martha, there are Jews and there are Christians. But then again, Jews are Christians. And I really want to explain that one to you. ... Read More
Tom, I never said that I knew everything. Tom, you are looking at the negativities. You are in control of what you are looking at. You should not take advantage of words like "Zealots." They at least were hungry for what they believe in. I am not happy about those zealot or with those horrible things that they did. You can say that I used a bad example. I could have said Revolution Hawaii pirates or Jedi Masters or superheroes or fairy. But I choice the word Zealot. Tom, you may not know me. Tom, you should see that I am a reporter. I am trying to paint a picture. Tom, I have this ability to connect the dots. I connected Revolution Hawaii with zealots because they are both doing something. I like using words that you can see. I believe Christians are to be rebels against Satan. That word makes me think of the Rebel Alliance from those Star Wars trilogies. I have a huge imagination. I use words to paint a picture. Tom, feel free to find faults in my words. Just that one word, "Zealots," is a good example of how I can be very easily misunderstood. The world is full of this. At least we are talking about it. It would be worse if we were to just keep all of this to ourselves. You at least brought that to my attention. That actually helps me. You really have to believe me when I say that. If you have a problem with me then you should let me know. I think you guys tell me already. I think that is good. I also think that it is good to explain myself. There is a whole lot more explaining to be done. But you will all have the choice to accept what I am about to say or reject it. I will either write more someday or I will buy a camcorder. I think I should stop writing because my face is a whole lot more hotter than my words are. You can better interpret what I say through the art of cinema. If you want me to stop writing then please tell me. Some of you have already told me to shut up already and I understand. And if you really want to watch my Youtube videos, instead, then just please let me know or else I may never do it or worse..... I have a lot to say and we have little time left here on earth. But nevertheless, it is still a choice. It is always your choice. You can always take my words in a negative tone or you can choose to look for the positive optimistic outlook to what I am going to say next.
Dear everybody, I am going to be on YouTube. And you will hear more from me about that. I will tell you all more later about what I am talking about, I swear. You may look at me in a negative way, Tom, but you do so with your eyes, not with mine.
Sun at 12:38am
Martha Sheppard
Why do you keep saying my name over and over again? Also, do you think you could rewrite this and put some paragraphs in it? It would make it easier to read and then maybe I could respond but it makes my head hurt to read it.
I read about the first line or two of each paragraph - and Joey, you don't what you are talking about. THis comment, just for one - " In other words, Judaism comes from Christianity. I have to say that." What???!!!! How do I say this without hurting your feelings? You are just wrong, Joey. This isn't even close to being true. In fact, it actually just eliminates you from being in the game when you make statements like this. And you made several . . .
And about the videos - that is dangerous, Joey. At least when people write things down, they have a chance to look at what they say - or at least they should before they press the enter button. But when someone chooses to video themselves talking, then one runs the chance of just saying a bunch of stuff that one hasn't taken the time to research or validate. ... Read More
But then, we are already at the stage, aren't we?
Joey, I think you should keep writing but if you don't use scripture or paragraphs, then I am not going to enter into dialogue with you because 1 - you have no authority and 2 - your writing is simply your thoughts processing. That's cool and all but it doesn't make for good dialogue - it just makes for undefined diatribes instead.
Other people might not have "old-age" eyes though and it will be easier for them. Keep writing but I would suggest that you put your thoughts in a document - organize them - find scripture to back them up - make your points clearly - and then copy and paste (wait, like Ronnie did when he started this whole thing!)
Ronnie, you are such a teacher's pet. . . .
I read about the first line or two of each paragraph - and Joey, you don't what you are talking about. THis comment, just for one - " In other words, Judaism comes from Christianity. I have to say that." What???!!!! How do I say this without hurting your feelings? You are just wrong, Joey. This isn't even close to being true. In fact, it actually just eliminates you from being in the game when you make statements like this. And you made several . . .
And about the videos - that is dangerous, Joey. At least when people write things down, they have a chance to look at what they say - or at least they should before they press the enter button. But when someone chooses to video themselves talking, then one runs the chance of just saying a bunch of stuff that one hasn't taken the time to research or validate. ... Read More
But then, we are already at the stage, aren't we?
Joey, I think you should keep writing but if you don't use scripture or paragraphs, then I am not going to enter into dialogue with you because 1 - you have no authority and 2 - your writing is simply your thoughts processing. That's cool and all but it doesn't make for good dialogue - it just makes for undefined diatribes instead.
Other people might not have "old-age" eyes though and it will be easier for them. Keep writing but I would suggest that you put your thoughts in a document - organize them - find scripture to back them up - make your points clearly - and then copy and paste (wait, like Ronnie did when he started this whole thing!)
Ronnie, you are such a teacher's pet. . . .
Sun at 1:34am
Oatmeal Joy
Martha Sheppard, you are right, we should reference truth. We should address scripture. Ronnie Gilden, you are the best at this. Authority roots from the Creator, point blank. We are also given authority, too. I should reference that one. Martha, but I still have to say your name, over and over again, on purpose, for good cause. Martha, I do not quote verses for good many reasons.
Blake Webb is also right. David Sheppard, Ronald Gilden, Martha Sheppard, hey, you guys cannot just throw up scriptures all day. Authority does not come from the words alone. Authority comes from the truth behind those words. We can reference Torah verses all day but that will do nothing if we do not allow for the illumination to help us understand God's Torah, God's Word. Blake Webb has said this many times, too. I will have to agree. I am not dogging on scripture verses. But I am dogging on the crutch of scriptures alone. We are not to live by bread alone. We are not to live by the words of the Bible alone. We are to live by the spirit, the principles behind those very words. Jeffrey Walters knows this too well.
Martha, I do not mean to make you sick. I am only here to express my sickness. Martha, I do not just press the "comment" send button without thinking. I am not just writing what I came up with just seconds ago. I have been struggling with what I write for all of my life.... Read More
Martha, the videos that are coming is why I am on earth. The purpose to my existence is in L4OJ. I will explain this more in the cinema movement that is coming. It will be bigger than Rob Bell or Lincoln Hawk or Rob Noland or Benny Hinn or Michael Jordan or you.
Blake Webb is also right. David Sheppard, Ronald Gilden, Martha Sheppard, hey, you guys cannot just throw up scriptures all day. Authority does not come from the words alone. Authority comes from the truth behind those words. We can reference Torah verses all day but that will do nothing if we do not allow for the illumination to help us understand God's Torah, God's Word. Blake Webb has said this many times, too. I will have to agree. I am not dogging on scripture verses. But I am dogging on the crutch of scriptures alone. We are not to live by bread alone. We are not to live by the words of the Bible alone. We are to live by the spirit, the principles behind those very words. Jeffrey Walters knows this too well.
Martha, I do not mean to make you sick. I am only here to express my sickness. Martha, I do not just press the "comment" send button without thinking. I am not just writing what I came up with just seconds ago. I have been struggling with what I write for all of my life.... Read More
Martha, the videos that are coming is why I am on earth. The purpose to my existence is in L4OJ. I will explain this more in the cinema movement that is coming. It will be bigger than Rob Bell or Lincoln Hawk or Rob Noland or Benny Hinn or Michael Jordan or you.
Sun at 1:52am
Martha Sheppard
Joey, so I enlarged my computer screen so I could read your long posts - since you sounded as though you really want to talk about this . . .I'll bite since the other ones have dropped off . ..
But regarding the Bible quoting thing and how we might not agree with each other on what it says (or means) . . .I believe the Bible is pretty self-explanatory. Why do we complicate it? I don't think it's as confusing as you want to make it out to be.
Your second paragraph ended with you staying that you needed some Torah Howburgers? Does this mean you are confused on how to do Torah? What part is giving you trouble, Joey? The Bible has more than enough wisdom for following Torah - read Proverbs if you are REALLY struggling with this. ... Read More
I don't understand what parts of Torah or the Old Testament you wouldn't want to follow. You have to follow the sacrifices - that part is Jesus, of course - his sacrifice applied to your heart. You say you love the Feasts so I guess you must have no problem there. You go to church each week, I'm guessing so are you struggling with the Sabbath? (I will admit it can be hard to give one day a week to the lord completely). Circumcision has to do with the heart - it always has, from the very beginning - and we have to have our hearts circumcised by God.
Torah HOWNESS isn't about how to follow laws and rules - it's about loving our neighbor, being fair, returning what we have found to its owner, being kind to animals - which of these do you struggle with not knowing how to do?
Go ahead and explain the "Jews are Christians" statement to me - because that one has me stumped - but you better use Scripture, Joey - and paragraphs, please.
You asked some great questions in an earlier post - about application in todays world as opposed to in the past. Regarding stoning - you said that we would have been stoning people for being disrespectful - actually, that is not true. Stoning could not happen without going before a court of law and the court of law had to have two witnesses and the Sanhedrin made it a point to do everything possible to never have to pass a death sentence. A Sanhedrin which imposed the death sentence more than twice in 7 years was called a "murderous Sanhedrin" and in recorded history of the Jews (and boy, did they record history) there are only two periods that this happened in. We would do MUCH better if we went back to the Torah way of justice - but alas, we are subject to another government, as were the Jews when they were in captivity. Those civic laws were in effect when they were under their own rule. Why do you think they had to get permission to have Jesus crucified? They couldn't do it on their own - even if the Torah said it - because the torah also said that they were subjecdt to the government over them.
Thank goodness that our government doesn't allow me to stone my children for being disrespectful because they would have a lot of bruises! haha
Joey, I read you to the end of all your posts - and I think you are grasping the truth - it is there in your hand and in your heart - and I don't know why you are fighting it so hard - or making it appear like you do?
Words are powerful and I totally understand what you are saying when you use the word Christian. The problem is that you are using a word in the context of a community and that community has a definition for the word Christianity that has a historical context, a grammatical context, etc. You can't say Christianity has been here fromthe beginning just because Christ has been here from before the beginning. You can't say that Abraham was a Christian just because he believed in a Christ to come. Your concept is absolutely correct, Joey - I totally know what you are saying - but your language is not working because the community that you are using the word in has a definition that says "Christianity started with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (God become man)." You can't change the definition of words - they are given by a community.
That is why it is so important to understand the community that the Bible was written in. Because words mean different things now than they did then - for instance, an evil eye doesn't mean an eye that looks to do evil things - it meant back then, a stingy eye - one that cheated in money and business, a tightwad. totally different things, huh? A concept is one thing - a definition is another.
So back to the application of Torah - if you want to know HOW to live out Torah, then you should read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. They show how the Torah is lived out i nthe life of a man. Jesus wasn't a High Priest (as a man) - he lived a normal life with a family who didn't always get along with him, people who hated him, hammers that hit his fingers, food that didn't always agree with him . . . he had to follow Torah the same way that you do, Joey - one pant leg at a time.
I am not Jewish, even though I'm grafted in and adopted - I reluctantly label myself as a Christian because that is how society defines me. I choose to see myself as a follower of Jesus Christ but that label is too long and people say, "oh, so you're a Christian." I don't like what it represents but it's as close as I can get and I have to let my lifestyle define the rest, I guess.
you have good ideas, Joey, and if you choose your words carefully, you will find that you will be able to make your arguments well - keep working on it! You asked for people to let you know if they were reading you all the way through and I want you to know I am . . .
don't give up talking but do take up paragraphs - ok??? Keep the faith!
But regarding the Bible quoting thing and how we might not agree with each other on what it says (or means) . . .I believe the Bible is pretty self-explanatory. Why do we complicate it? I don't think it's as confusing as you want to make it out to be.
Your second paragraph ended with you staying that you needed some Torah Howburgers? Does this mean you are confused on how to do Torah? What part is giving you trouble, Joey? The Bible has more than enough wisdom for following Torah - read Proverbs if you are REALLY struggling with this. ... Read More
I don't understand what parts of Torah or the Old Testament you wouldn't want to follow. You have to follow the sacrifices - that part is Jesus, of course - his sacrifice applied to your heart. You say you love the Feasts so I guess you must have no problem there. You go to church each week, I'm guessing so are you struggling with the Sabbath? (I will admit it can be hard to give one day a week to the lord completely). Circumcision has to do with the heart - it always has, from the very beginning - and we have to have our hearts circumcised by God.
Torah HOWNESS isn't about how to follow laws and rules - it's about loving our neighbor, being fair, returning what we have found to its owner, being kind to animals - which of these do you struggle with not knowing how to do?
Go ahead and explain the "Jews are Christians" statement to me - because that one has me stumped - but you better use Scripture, Joey - and paragraphs, please.
You asked some great questions in an earlier post - about application in todays world as opposed to in the past. Regarding stoning - you said that we would have been stoning people for being disrespectful - actually, that is not true. Stoning could not happen without going before a court of law and the court of law had to have two witnesses and the Sanhedrin made it a point to do everything possible to never have to pass a death sentence. A Sanhedrin which imposed the death sentence more than twice in 7 years was called a "murderous Sanhedrin" and in recorded history of the Jews (and boy, did they record history) there are only two periods that this happened in. We would do MUCH better if we went back to the Torah way of justice - but alas, we are subject to another government, as were the Jews when they were in captivity. Those civic laws were in effect when they were under their own rule. Why do you think they had to get permission to have Jesus crucified? They couldn't do it on their own - even if the Torah said it - because the torah also said that they were subjecdt to the government over them.
Thank goodness that our government doesn't allow me to stone my children for being disrespectful because they would have a lot of bruises! haha
Joey, I read you to the end of all your posts - and I think you are grasping the truth - it is there in your hand and in your heart - and I don't know why you are fighting it so hard - or making it appear like you do?
Words are powerful and I totally understand what you are saying when you use the word Christian. The problem is that you are using a word in the context of a community and that community has a definition for the word Christianity that has a historical context, a grammatical context, etc. You can't say Christianity has been here fromthe beginning just because Christ has been here from before the beginning. You can't say that Abraham was a Christian just because he believed in a Christ to come. Your concept is absolutely correct, Joey - I totally know what you are saying - but your language is not working because the community that you are using the word in has a definition that says "Christianity started with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (God become man)." You can't change the definition of words - they are given by a community.
That is why it is so important to understand the community that the Bible was written in. Because words mean different things now than they did then - for instance, an evil eye doesn't mean an eye that looks to do evil things - it meant back then, a stingy eye - one that cheated in money and business, a tightwad. totally different things, huh? A concept is one thing - a definition is another.
So back to the application of Torah - if you want to know HOW to live out Torah, then you should read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. They show how the Torah is lived out i nthe life of a man. Jesus wasn't a High Priest (as a man) - he lived a normal life with a family who didn't always get along with him, people who hated him, hammers that hit his fingers, food that didn't always agree with him . . . he had to follow Torah the same way that you do, Joey - one pant leg at a time.
I am not Jewish, even though I'm grafted in and adopted - I reluctantly label myself as a Christian because that is how society defines me. I choose to see myself as a follower of Jesus Christ but that label is too long and people say, "oh, so you're a Christian." I don't like what it represents but it's as close as I can get and I have to let my lifestyle define the rest, I guess.
you have good ideas, Joey, and if you choose your words carefully, you will find that you will be able to make your arguments well - keep working on it! You asked for people to let you know if they were reading you all the way through and I want you to know I am . . .
don't give up talking but do take up paragraphs - ok??? Keep the faith!
Sun at 1:36am
Martha Sheppard
The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The same God that David talked of in Psalm 119 which is held supposedly so dear to us. The God that rescued a ragtag group of desert nomads from a slave that worshipped 100's of God and showed the world for all time that He was in control - evenif they don't accept his rule.
I see the Torah as being a marriage covenant, Joey - given to a homeless bride who came out of prostitution. Those slaves had no basis for behavior except what they had seen for 400 years from Egyptian masters. He was showing them what a "holy" bride looks like . . how she behaves to other people, how she celebrates on her off days, how she even cooks dinner. It is a covenant of love, gently bringing her out of the state of pagan worship that she had been submersed in (slavery to Egypt is pretty much submersion, even if you remember your fathers before).
That is why God hadn't given the Torah as we know it to Abraham, he already had it - Genesis 26:5 - God had already been talking to him about these same things and I'm sure that he was teaching them to his family and disciples.... Read More
But coming out of Egypt, there were over half million men - something a little harder for one man to teach without it being codified and written down for all to be able to access. they needed a visual reminder of God's continuing presence - the tabernacle.
The Pentateuch is that covenant. The History books are a record of the Jews and their response to that covenant. The Prophets are a record of them trying to correct the Jews to a right observance of it. The Poetry books are a record of their emotional response to the love covenant.
Finally, after trying to keep their end of the covenant and failing over and over again (Like the story in HOsea), Jesus comes down and says, in loud letters - LOOK - this is how it is supposed to be done! He sets us an example of a holy life, which was already described 2000 years earlier in the pre-nuptial agreement signed in the desert.
He wants to take the homeless prostitution and turn her into a spotless bride - and that will happen when the Jew and Gentile become one man (weird, huh that a man is a bride - well, you have to work with it . . .okay) and THAT will happen when we both realize our roles in the church - the assembly - the body - which for the record started 4,000 years ago in the desert NOT in an upper room on Pentecost.
Here's another very cool thing - God knew that we would never be able to fulfill the obligations so FROM THE START - with Abraham, he was the one who walked through the fire (Abram was asleep) saying he would be the keeper of both sides. When we did indeed break covenant (the whole world has sinned), he provides himself as the sacrifice so that our part of the bargain can be kept.
I know it is a saying that is older than many of you who might be reading this but I want to be a "kept woman." Kept by God.
That is what Torah is . . .
I see the Torah as being a marriage covenant, Joey - given to a homeless bride who came out of prostitution. Those slaves had no basis for behavior except what they had seen for 400 years from Egyptian masters. He was showing them what a "holy" bride looks like . . how she behaves to other people, how she celebrates on her off days, how she even cooks dinner. It is a covenant of love, gently bringing her out of the state of pagan worship that she had been submersed in (slavery to Egypt is pretty much submersion, even if you remember your fathers before).
That is why God hadn't given the Torah as we know it to Abraham, he already had it - Genesis 26:5 - God had already been talking to him about these same things and I'm sure that he was teaching them to his family and disciples.... Read More
But coming out of Egypt, there were over half million men - something a little harder for one man to teach without it being codified and written down for all to be able to access. they needed a visual reminder of God's continuing presence - the tabernacle.
The Pentateuch is that covenant. The History books are a record of the Jews and their response to that covenant. The Prophets are a record of them trying to correct the Jews to a right observance of it. The Poetry books are a record of their emotional response to the love covenant.
Finally, after trying to keep their end of the covenant and failing over and over again (Like the story in HOsea), Jesus comes down and says, in loud letters - LOOK - this is how it is supposed to be done! He sets us an example of a holy life, which was already described 2000 years earlier in the pre-nuptial agreement signed in the desert.
He wants to take the homeless prostitution and turn her into a spotless bride - and that will happen when the Jew and Gentile become one man (weird, huh that a man is a bride - well, you have to work with it . . .okay) and THAT will happen when we both realize our roles in the church - the assembly - the body - which for the record started 4,000 years ago in the desert NOT in an upper room on Pentecost.
Here's another very cool thing - God knew that we would never be able to fulfill the obligations so FROM THE START - with Abraham, he was the one who walked through the fire (Abram was asleep) saying he would be the keeper of both sides. When we did indeed break covenant (the whole world has sinned), he provides himself as the sacrifice so that our part of the bargain can be kept.
I know it is a saying that is older than many of you who might be reading this but I want to be a "kept woman." Kept by God.
That is what Torah is . . .
Sun at 8:24am
Blake Webb
lol @ tom helus' comment
Sun at 2:06pm
Jeffrey Walters
oh my. haha, this is getting vicious.
martha, tom... joey is who he is. if you know him in person, you shouldn't be so shocked at his posts. look closer at what he is saying and don't get so caught up in the fireworks.
and about the common christian faith. my faith is rooted in principles found in the law, brought to life by the spirit. i shouldn't have to explain that. and yes, i do know your husband. i know enough, at least. i love his cheer, his boldness, and his cheeks. i wanna pinch 'em. but anyway, whether he has studied this for 20 years or not doesn't say much. the study of our beliefs or theology has been investigated for centuries upon centuries, and by more intellectual and overall better qualified thinkers than don. less, we wouldn't have such a difference in opinion, right?... Read More
i mean, none of this is new.
martha, tom... joey is who he is. if you know him in person, you shouldn't be so shocked at his posts. look closer at what he is saying and don't get so caught up in the fireworks.
and about the common christian faith. my faith is rooted in principles found in the law, brought to life by the spirit. i shouldn't have to explain that. and yes, i do know your husband. i know enough, at least. i love his cheer, his boldness, and his cheeks. i wanna pinch 'em. but anyway, whether he has studied this for 20 years or not doesn't say much. the study of our beliefs or theology has been investigated for centuries upon centuries, and by more intellectual and overall better qualified thinkers than don. less, we wouldn't have such a difference in opinion, right?... Read More
i mean, none of this is new.
Sun at 4:48pm
Martha Sheppard
It was new for me when I first heard about it, despite being brought up in the common christian church. it sure seems to be new to a lot of people . . .
and actually, our "common christian" theology has only been around for a few hundred years - unless we are talking catholic theology, which I am not. Catholic theology, which has lots of ... Read Moreproblems with it, has been around for about 18 centuries and Judaism about 2000 years before that . . .
It seems to me that the views of evangelical Christianity are very new, when I look at history . .
and actually, our "common christian" theology has only been around for a few hundred years - unless we are talking catholic theology, which I am not. Catholic theology, which has lots of ... Read Moreproblems with it, has been around for about 18 centuries and Judaism about 2000 years before that . . .
It seems to me that the views of evangelical Christianity are very new, when I look at history . .
Sun at 8:11pm
Jeffrey Walters
look at what i am saying. i said our beliefs have been investigated for this length of time. since paul traveled far and wide, here we have a jewish god being established globaly. you could even make the argument that since plato, our faith has been passed between some of the greatest thinkers of all time. so yes, our religion has had people ... Read Morestudying it and thinking it over, like don does. my defense is in those studies, the same kind that don does. i haven't developed my own understanding is all, i've only taken a look at both sides of the spectrum from the best of my abilities.
common christian theology, namely our views on the law, have existed since the time of the new testament writers, this i can say after referring to so many scripture before. but that debate seems to be exhausted.
common christian theology, namely our views on the law, have existed since the time of the new testament writers, this i can say after referring to so many scripture before. but that debate seems to be exhausted.
Mon at 9:11am
Oatmeal Joy
Set your time machine to 4:37pm, Friday, October 2nd, 2009, to Ronald Gilden's note: "Why I Keep Torah:"
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=146150702946&comments . (exactly one month ago: right now, it is: 11:30pm: Monday: November 2nd, 2009: inside my PDX lobby place). Time to go back in time.
But we really do need to go back.
... Read More
Hold on, take me with you. See my jealousy. Let's go back and change it to "Why I Keep Torah," by Joey Arnold. This should be my discussion forum. That is why I take it back. I take back my words. Because we need to go back. Because there is this confusion.
Jeffrey Walters, you're right, let's skateboard backwards, because we're drowning inside misunderstandings. Let's go back in time, Marty McFly, Michael J. Fox, Doc, Parkinson Disease, because this is the day that the Lord has made. Because it is time. We're roasting within conflict.
We really need to go back.
Rob Noland will tell you about conflict resolution, especially in team group settings. http://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newLDR_81.htm . That's what we got. Conflict. Huge conflict. Misunderstandings. Let me tell you more about that tomorrow, possibly.
Janet Bailey will tell you that the truth is out there. Jeffrey Walters will tell you to dig harder.
But it starts with going back.
We need to see the conflict. I really want to show you this. But my words can only do so well. You have to use your imagination. You have to work with me, step by step. I have a lot of things to say. And I am going to say them. And you thought that I was done talking. Oh no, I have yet to speak. I have yet to speak. That is part of the reason why I want to go back. We must go back to where it all started. There are some things that we have missed. Seriously, there are just a few things that we jumped over. But I have just wrote so much. Grrrrrrrrrr!
We are tardy.
We are late for class.
We are missing the point.
We are assuming too much.
We are misunderstanding each other.
We are missing some things.
We are in a dying conflict.
We are too ignorant to even care.
We are drowning on our closed mindedness.
We are sick.
I am sick.
Too sick to go back.
We are too sick to go back.
Because I have wrote so much already. I feel that my words have gone no where. I feel that my words do so little. We are little mice on turning wheels. King Solomon, all is vanity, apart from Jesus.
But we are going to go back.
Come with me. I was only kidding about the time machine. I know that you don't have one. You may be happy with where you are. With who you are. With what you do. But I am going to go back, whether you like it or not. I at least have a time machine and I am taking things back. I am going back, no matter what. You may be ok with where we are in this debate.
But we are going back.
I am going to answer the questions, this time. I will even answer all of the questions that I have thrown out there. I am even going to throw up some Torah verses up all over onto this forum. I am going to use God's Word, indeed, so get your Bible's out. I am going to amaze you. I am going to shock you. It is time to go back. It is time to make history. It is time to live out Torah for real. We are making a website. We are going to talk about being Torah Masters. And I will tell you how.
I will tell you how to Torah.
I have asked about the Torah. But we got nowhere with that. I was looking for detail answers to Torah 101, to making Torah burgers, Torah pies, Torah ladders, Torah trees, Torah houses, Torah schools, Torah ants, Torah cupcakes, Torah fries, Torah Jeff's, Torah Fireworks, Torah Martha's, Torah Ronnie's, Torah Mikes, Torah Davids, Torah food, Torah apples, Torah revolution, Torah life, each day, step by step, through L4OJ, through us, through Jesus. And I will tell you how. I will tell you why.
Feel free to ask me more questions, after the beep, and I will get back to you, or your money back, guaranteed. This is going to be priceless.
We are going back because this is it.
No more playing dumb. I have a message to proclaim. That is why I wish that I was Will Smith from that Men in Black trilogy movie. Just look closely at my pen. I am agent J. Agent Joey. I may not be Michael J. Fox. I may not have mojo. I may not actually have a time machine. But I have this pen. Stare right into my pen's light. Because I am Peter Pan and I want to take you back. I want start all over. I want to really clear things up. I am Michael Jackson. And I really have to make things right. Sorry for sleeping around with your children. No more playing dumb. No more fooling around. No more being a Gomer to you, prophet Hosea. I have damaged my audience. But I have not lost hope.
Because this is it.
We really have to go back. That is why I asked what everybody believed, earlier. Because what we believe determines how we will live. Because what we believe determines who we are. Hopefully, we are Judeo-Christians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian
Hopefully, we will believe in the Torah. And hopefully, we will then all believe in doing the Torah.
But that is the problem.
How do we Torah.
Let's get back to that.
That is what this whole debate is all about.
It really depends on what we believe.
But let's be careful. We can use the Bible to support us. We can take the Bible out of context. Use the Bible to our advantage. We can rape the Bible. We can twist the Bible. And I know that I have, already. I apologize. That is why we must go back. Because we don't have all the answers. But we sure can try through Jesus.That is what Rob Bell says in his book Velvet Elvis.
But for the most part, I just want to tell you what I believe. How I believe it. And why I believe what I believe. I just want to brain wash you. Tom Helus has already said this. I am Satan. I'm here to indoctrinate you. This is serious business. There is no LOL in any of this, Tom. I am here to make history. And I will tell you more on that in person.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd8-CmHpQj4&feature=fvw
We are going back.
Because this is it.
Because it is time.
Tell you more, later.
http://www.facebook.com/no
But we really do need to go back.
... Read More
Hold on, take me with you. See my jealousy. Let's go back and change it to "Why I Keep Torah," by Joey Arnold. This should be my discussion forum. That is why I take it back. I take back my words. Because we need to go back. Because there is this confusion.
Jeffrey Walters, you're right, let's skateboard backwards, because we're drowning inside misunderstandings. Let's go back in time, Marty McFly, Michael J. Fox, Doc, Parkinson Disease, because this is the day that the Lord has made. Because it is time. We're roasting within conflict.
We really need to go back.
Rob Noland will tell you about conflict resolution, especially in team group settings. http://www.mindtools.com/p
Janet Bailey will tell you that the truth is out there. Jeffrey Walters will tell you to dig harder.
But it starts with going back.
We need to see the conflict. I really want to show you this. But my words can only do so well. You have to use your imagination. You have to work with me, step by step. I have a lot of things to say. And I am going to say them. And you thought that I was done talking. Oh no, I have yet to speak. I have yet to speak. That is part of the reason why I want to go back. We must go back to where it all started. There are some things that we have missed. Seriously, there are just a few things that we jumped over. But I have just wrote so much. Grrrrrrrrrr!
We are tardy.
We are late for class.
We are missing the point.
We are assuming too much.
We are misunderstanding each other.
We are missing some things.
We are in a dying conflict.
We are too ignorant to even care.
We are drowning on our closed mindedness.
We are sick.
I am sick.
Too sick to go back.
We are too sick to go back.
Because I have wrote so much already. I feel that my words have gone no where. I feel that my words do so little. We are little mice on turning wheels. King Solomon, all is vanity, apart from Jesus.
But we are going to go back.
Come with me. I was only kidding about the time machine. I know that you don't have one. You may be happy with where you are. With who you are. With what you do. But I am going to go back, whether you like it or not. I at least have a time machine and I am taking things back. I am going back, no matter what. You may be ok with where we are in this debate.
But we are going back.
I am going to answer the questions, this time. I will even answer all of the questions that I have thrown out there. I am even going to throw up some Torah verses up all over onto this forum. I am going to use God's Word, indeed, so get your Bible's out. I am going to amaze you. I am going to shock you. It is time to go back. It is time to make history. It is time to live out Torah for real. We are making a website. We are going to talk about being Torah Masters. And I will tell you how.
I will tell you how to Torah.
I have asked about the Torah. But we got nowhere with that. I was looking for detail answers to Torah 101, to making Torah burgers, Torah pies, Torah ladders, Torah trees, Torah houses, Torah schools, Torah ants, Torah cupcakes, Torah fries, Torah Jeff's, Torah Fireworks, Torah Martha's, Torah Ronnie's, Torah Mikes, Torah Davids, Torah food, Torah apples, Torah revolution, Torah life, each day, step by step, through L4OJ, through us, through Jesus. And I will tell you how. I will tell you why.
Feel free to ask me more questions, after the beep, and I will get back to you, or your money back, guaranteed. This is going to be priceless.
We are going back because this is it.
No more playing dumb. I have a message to proclaim. That is why I wish that I was Will Smith from that Men in Black trilogy movie. Just look closely at my pen. I am agent J. Agent Joey. I may not be Michael J. Fox. I may not have mojo. I may not actually have a time machine. But I have this pen. Stare right into my pen's light. Because I am Peter Pan and I want to take you back. I want start all over. I want to really clear things up. I am Michael Jackson. And I really have to make things right. Sorry for sleeping around with your children. No more playing dumb. No more fooling around. No more being a Gomer to you, prophet Hosea. I have damaged my audience. But I have not lost hope.
Because this is it.
We really have to go back. That is why I asked what everybody believed, earlier. Because what we believe determines how we will live. Because what we believe determines who we are. Hopefully, we are Judeo-Christians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wi
Hopefully, we will believe in the Torah. And hopefully, we will then all believe in doing the Torah.
But that is the problem.
How do we Torah.
Let's get back to that.
That is what this whole debate is all about.
It really depends on what we believe.
But let's be careful. We can use the Bible to support us. We can take the Bible out of context. Use the Bible to our advantage. We can rape the Bible. We can twist the Bible. And I know that I have, already. I apologize. That is why we must go back. Because we don't have all the answers. But we sure can try through Jesus.That is what Rob Bell says in his book Velvet Elvis.
But for the most part, I just want to tell you what I believe. How I believe it. And why I believe what I believe. I just want to brain wash you. Tom Helus has already said this. I am Satan. I'm here to indoctrinate you. This is serious business. There is no LOL in any of this, Tom. I am here to make history. And I will tell you more on that in person.
http://www.youtube.com/wat
We are going back.
Because this is it.
Because it is time.
Tell you more, later.
Mon at 11:43pm
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If kosher foods is better, why else would Jesus, I mean, God, have Israel, do so, if it was not better to do so, or is that no longer better to eat kosher, but who decides, and Jesus would never say something silly like, "Stand on your head," so, I really think that you should take the whole Bible, even the Old Testament, as you were saying, and apply them, I mean, really, but then again, I have to be careful about application, or about spiritualizing everything, or picking and choosing what to do, but to do so, not because we have to, to earn our way into Heaven, but because we want to.
In conclusion, I may just actually like totally agree with everything you are writing, I think, for now, and if that is the case, then good work, or to be continued.
Joey, I think all the "rules" should be followed. They were all given by God. Look at Romans 2:13. But yes, it's hard to determine how exactly it applies and how specific we should get. Jews have spent hundreds of years trying to decide just that - the Mishnah, Talmud, and other writings are the result of such questions. (The important thing... Read More, though, is not to let the traditions or laws of man become more important than the commands of God. That's what Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for many times.)
Emily,
I think I agree with you, totally, I think......
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But I will still be wondering if part of the problem or confusion with putting to flesh these laws--whether we are Jew or not Jew (or Gentile or Christian), with applying all the commandments--could just maybe be in our dealings with dispensations.
It is said that each dispensation--each time period, each era, each governing setting, each world, each system, so to speak--depends solely on the specific purpose behind God's history, which then would alter or determine our specific application to how we then follow those rules.
If you have no idea what I am talking about then don't worry, just continue following Jesus, L4OJ.
Many times, God talks about how the foreigner is involved in Israel. I would recommend reading "Fellow Heirs" by Tim Hegg. I personally believe Gentiles can become a part of Israel through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 9, 11) and thus have the entire Torah to delight in.
I also think it's interesting that God uses the words "lasting ordinance" so many times (http://www.biblegateway.co
Joey, if I understand you correctly (...), one of the first things you were mentioning was about remembering exactly who certain parts of the Bible was written to.
Emily actually already touched on this (thank you by the way), but God's Law was given to His redeemed people- the people He saved from Egypt. It was given to both Jews and Gentiles (as Emily noted, the 'mixed multitude' that left with the descendants of Jacob), all of whom became known as 'Israel'. So contextually the Torah was written for the saved people of God. God had already rescued, then gave them His ways to walk in them. ... Read More... Read More
That is to say, we are saved by our trusting in God and THEN we start obeying God's commandments. Does that make sense? I hear over and over that those commandments are just for the Jews, and to this I say 'Lies.' We are all one people. Let me quote that Galatians passage at length.
'For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's then you are of Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.' - Gal. 3:26-29
Once again, 'if you are Christ's then you are of Abraham's seed' - Paul was writing to both Gentiles and Jews here.
Romans 10:12 'For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.'
Read Romans 11 as Emily said- it says that Gentile believers have been grafted into Israel.
I hope to touch on this at length in my next post, but let me leave you with this:
'One ordinance shall be for you of the assembly and for the stranger [Gentile believer] who dwells with you, an ordinance forever throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. One law and one custom shall be for you and for the stranger who dwells with you.' - Numbers 15:15-16
I know Paul makes the very astute observation Romans 4 (and other places) that Abraham was circumcised physically AFTER God declared him righteous ('saved' as it were). Paul notes that the circumcision was a SIGN of that righteousness. But it occurred ... Read Morelater- after God declared him righteous. Essentially Paul is saying that Abraham was circumcised spiritually first, then circumcised physically second as a outward symbol of the inward change. That's that in a nutshell.
Deuteronomy 10:16, 30:6, and Jeremiah 4:4 all refer to God circumcising our hearts. So, if I'm understanding your question correctly, then I would say, yes- you should be spiritually circumcised.